Talk:Manchu alphabet

Page 50

http://books.google.com/books?id=KHwPAAAAYAAJ&q=Another+problem+had+arisen.+The+script+did+not+transcribe+sounds+of+Chinese+and+Sanskrit+words+borrowed+by+the+Manchus.+There%C2%ADfore+Dahai+added+ten+graphemes,+“tulergi+hergen”+in+Manchu+(liter%C2%ADally+“foreign+(outer)+letters”),+to+the+Mongolian+alphabet+to+render+Chinese+(mostly+in+Chinese+names,+titles+and+offices)+and+Sanskrit+sounds+which+were+absent+in+Manchu.&dq=Another+problem+had+arisen.+The+script+did+not+transcribe+sounds+of+Chinese+and+Sanskrit+words+borrowed+by+the+Manchus.+There%C2%ADfore+Dahai+added+ten+graphemes,+“tulergi+hergen”+in+Manchu+(liter%C2%ADally+“foreign+(outer)+letters”),+to+the+Mongolian+alphabet+to+render+Chinese+(mostly+in+Chinese+names,+titles+and+offices)+and+Sanskrit+sounds+which+were+absent+in+Manchu.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DmYwVIiaJNWjyATV4YHoDA&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA

http://books.google.com/books?id=eVRiAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA390&dq=manchu+alphabet&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iTjMU56CBtbesAS4x4LIDQ&ved=0CEgQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=manchu%20alphabet&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=owsYAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=bibliogroup:%22The+Alphabet:+An+Account+of+the+Origin+and+Development+of+Letters%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2TnMU7CrEOnesASS9YHYBw&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Manchu&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=sAcIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA308#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=mMVAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA559&dq=manchu+alphabet&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iTjMU56CBtbesAS4x4LIDQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=manchu%20alphabet&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=j9ICAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA539&dq=manchu+alphabet&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iTjMU56CBtbesAS4x4LIDQ&ved=0CEQQ6wEwBw#v=onepage&q=manchu%20alphabet&f=false

From Jia
There doesn't seem to be a lot describing the alphabet itself. I don't know how limited the resources on this particular script are but if possible, a chart or phonemic inventory would be nice. Perhaps a picture of the whole alphabet. Also, you might want to give some kind of example and go into further detail of how the Manchu script was adapted to write foreign words. There was a whole Chinese Dynasty of Manchu rule so I'm sure the changes should be somewhat extensive.cjdz (talk) 02:36, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

From Frank
Good job Norris. It seems that you have put in a lot of information on history of the script, but it wasn't clear to me how Manchu people wrote before 1599, were they always employing Mongolian scribes before that? I think maybe you can also mention the type of script Manchu is (even if it might be obvious) and elaborate a bit on how it can classified as that type (why is it a syllabary or logography). Also it would be nice if you could give a rough estimate of how many symbols it use. Last thing, in the lead, it said the "manchu script 'was' used to record the near-extinct.... is the script still used today for the Manchu language? Chujianma (talk) 02:46, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Revision
I added a character chart, which addresses almost all of these concerns, although it is missing a great number of graphics. I also added a list of the sounds represented by the ten tulergi hergen. Frank: I guess you didn't notice, but in the top-right it says that it's an alphabet. Manchu was indeed written in Mongolian prior to 1599, but I thought that the pre-existing paragraph was fairly clear. Finally, according to Manchu language, the Manchu alphabet is still in use; I note that that page does not have a citation for this, however, and my own sources cover only history, not modern-day; therefore I left that part the way it was. -Fuzzy Pickle (talk) 05:50, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

"Wikipedia" in Manchu script
The Manchu script for ‘Wikipedia‘ has some errors in it.

1. Most noticeably there appears that the collocation of consonant 'w' with the vowel 'i' does not seem to be a legal form of collocation in Manchurian. It is suggested that it is changed either to 'waik(g)i' or 'weik(g)i' rather than the direct transcription of 'wiki'.

2. It is suggested that the semi-vowel 'y' is added into the syllable between 'di' and 'a' to indicate the existence of an 'a' vowel, and to distinguish the vowel 'a' from the ending form of 'n' which shares a same form with 'a' at the final position of a word.

3. It is suggested that the part pronounced as 'pi' (as in 'pedia'), should follow the direct pronunciation of the syllable rather than the surface spelling of English. Therefore, it should be written in Manchurian as 'pi' instead of 'pe'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by COD5isGAY (talk • contribs) 02:40, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Perceived as a Syllabary by Manchus
Alphabet Mantchou

http://books.google.com/books?id=24hFAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=p10VAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Alphabet Mantchou: redige d'apres le Syllabaire et le Dictionnaire universel de cette langue By Louis Mathieu Langles

http://books.google.com/books?id=AUpTAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA163&dq=les+mots+chinois+et+mantchoux+y+sont+%C3%A9crits+comme+on+les+prononce+%C3%A0+la+cour....&hl=en&sa=X&ei=M9kEVIuZGIWUgwTLtoL4DQ&ved=0CEMQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=les%20mots%20chinois%20et%20mantchoux%20y%20sont%20%C3%A9crits%20comme%20on%20les%20prononce%20%C3%A0%20la%20cour....&f=false

Alphabet Mantchou: rédigé d'aprés le syllabaire et le dictionnaire universel de cette langue By Louis Mathieu Langlès

http://books.google.com/books?id=24hFAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA163&dq=les+mots+chinois+et+mantchoux+y+sont+%C3%A9crits+comme+on+les+prononce+%C3%A0+la+cour....&hl=en&sa=X&ei=M9kEVIuZGIWUgwTLtoL4DQ&ved=0CEgQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=les%20mots%20chinois%20et%20mantchoux%20y%20sont%20%C3%A9crits%20comme%20on%20les%20prononce%20%C3%A0%20la%20cour....&f=false

Alphabet Mantchou, rédigé d'après le Syllabaire et le Dictionnaire universel de cette langue By Louis Mathieu Langlès

http://books.google.com/books?id=tXRNAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA166&dq=commentaria+academi%C3%A6+petropolitan%C3%A6&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nRgEVK3oN4PpggS3xIDoAQ&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAg

Mémoires relatifs à l'Asie... By Julius von Klaproth

http://books.google.com/books?id=VZM7HX5c1QcC&pg=PA64#v=onepage&q&f=false

Memoires relatifs a l'Asie, contenant des recherches historiques, géographique et philologiques sur les peuples de l'orient; par m. J. Klaproth ... Tome premier [- troisieme], Volume 3

http://books.google.com/books?id=zq0aYevKgpIC&pg=PA64#v=onepage&q&f=false

Mémoires relatifs a l'Asie: contenant des recherches historiques, géographiques et philologiques sur les peuples de l'Orient, Volume 3

http://books.google.com/books?id=V8AoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA64#v=onepage&q&f=false

Travels in China: Containing Descriptions, Observations, and Comparisons, Made and Collected in the Course of a Short Residence at the Imperial Palace of Yuen-Min-Yuen, and on a Subsequent Journey Through the Country from Pekin to Canton By Sir John Barrow

http://books.google.com/books?id=UNcMAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=sir++john+barrow+travels+in+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_QYFVL68EJfCggTO7IJA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=tartar&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=UNcMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA270#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=_t0XNAAACAAJ&dq=sir++john+barrow+travels+in+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_QYFVL68EJfCggTO7IJA&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ

Mongolian_script

http://books.google.com/books?id=1bArr1-E5mQC&pg=PA16&dq=Alphabet:+Some+scholars+consider+the+Manchu+script+to+be+a+syllabic+one.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SQ7IU-HSJoXgsAT89oLIDw&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Alphabet%3A%20Some%20scholars%20consider%20the%20Manchu%20script%20to%20be%20a%20syllabic%20one.&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=zppFAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA2#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=v6k-AAAAcAAJ&pg=PR29#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=fdAOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PR58&dq=Lettres+that+familiar+method+decomposing+syllables+letters&hl=en&sa=X&ei=efz5U6WYEYrfsATVm4EI&ved=0CCEQ6wEwAA#v=onepage&q=Lettres%20that%20familiar%20method%20decomposing%20syllables%20letters&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=DUYQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA356#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=KHwPAAAAYAAJ&q=In+spite+of+the+fact+that+the+Manchus+themselves+probably+considered+their+script+as+syllabic,+in+fact+it+was+writing+in+letters.&dq=In+spite+of+the+fact+that+the+Manchus+themselves+probably+considered+their+script+as+syllabic,+in+fact+it+was+writing+in+letters.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YA7IU8TOO6risASpg4DQDg&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA

http://books.google.com/books?id=KHwPAAAAYAAJ&q=Although+there+is+some+evidence+that+the+Manchus+themselves+were+likely+to+perceive+their+own+writing+system+as+syllabic,+and+learned+it+as+syllabary,+in+fact+it+became+a+writing+in+letters+after+Dahai+carried+out+his+reforms.&dq=Although+there+is+some+evidence+that+the+Manchus+themselves+were+likely+to+perceive+their+own+writing+system+as+syllabic,+and+learned+it+as+syllabary,+in+fact+it+became+a+writing+in+letters+after+Dahai+carried+out+his+reforms.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gIDJU4O9BsvJsQT584C4Cg&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA

http://books.google.com/books?id=KHwPAAAAYAAJ&q=Investigating+also+syllabic+patterns+of+Manchu+words,+Dahai+dis%C2%ADtributed+all+syllables,+1441+in+number,+among+twelve+classes.+The+Manchu+writing+system+itself,+described+by+Dahai+as+the+twelve+di%C2%ADvisions+of+the+syllabary,+had+got+the+name&dq=Investigating+also+syllabic+patterns+of+Manchu+words,+Dahai+dis%C2%ADtributed+all+syllables,+1441+in+number,+among+twelve+classes.+The+Manchu+writing+system+itself,+described+by+Dahai+as+the+twelve+di%C2%ADvisions+of+the+syllabary,+had+got+the+name&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tYDJU-fqCY3jsASN54CICg&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAA

http://books.google.com/books?id=J4L-_cjmSqoC&pg=PA126&dq=a+ama++me+mother++made+up+you+just+try+it+out+taizu&hl=en&sa=X&ei=h6cfVMCFE8S3yASJ3oHoDw&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=a%20ama%20%20me%20mother%20%20made%20up%20you%20just%20try%20it%20out%20taizu&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=J4L-_cjmSqoC&pg=PA127#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=NElwAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA262&dq=mongolian+There+is+no++merely+apply+++our+language+connect+syllables++words+written++show+meaning&hl=en&sa=X&ei=K036U4-_LZHesAT8_IHABQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=mongolian%20There%20is%20no%20%20merely%20apply%20%20%20our%20language%20connect%20syllables%20%20words%20written%20%20show%20meaning&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=v6k-AAAAcAAJ&pg=PR27&dq=mongolian+There+is+no++merely+apply+++our+language+connect+syllables++words+written++show+meaning&hl=en&sa=X&ei=K036U4-_LZHesAT8_IHABQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=mongolian%20There%20is%20no%20%20merely%20apply%20%20%20our%20language%20connect%20syllables%20%20words%20written%20%20show%20meaning&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=fdAOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PR27&dq=mongolian+There+is+no++merely+apply+++our+language+connect+syllables++words+written++show+meaning&hl=en&sa=X&ei=K036U4-_LZHesAT8_IHABQ&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=mongolian%20There%20is%20no%20%20merely%20apply%20%20%20our%20language%20connect%20syllables%20%20words%20written%20%20show%20meaning&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=DscYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA130&dq=twelve+classes+syllables+mongol&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A4DJU4qxEojKsQSTqYKYCQ&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=twelve%20classes%20syllables%20mongol&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=NElwAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA261&dq=twelve+classes+syllables+mongol&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A4DJU4qxEojKsQSTqYKYCQ&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=twelve%20classes%20syllables%20mongol&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=fdAOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PR26&dq=twelve+classes+syllables+mongol&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A4DJU4qxEojKsQSTqYKYCQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=twelve%20classes%20syllables%20mongol&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=v6k-AAAAcAAJ&pg=PR26&dq=twelve+classes+syllables+mongol&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A4DJU4qxEojKsQSTqYKYCQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=twelve%20classes%20syllables%20mongol&f=false

十二字頭 Shi'er zitou twelve rhymes

http://books.google.com/books?id=okhrBBmnHVQC&pg=PA135#v=onepage&q&f=false

medial vowel initial

http://books.google.com/books?id=okhrBBmnHVQC&pg=PA60#v=onepage&q&f=false

满文十二字头

http://manchusky.manjusa.com/tid-376111.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=v6k-AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA3#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Manchu/Lesson_12_-_The_Manchu_Script#Juwan_juwe_ujui_hergen_.28.E5.8D.81.E4.BA.8C.E4.B8.AA.E5.AD.97.E5.A4.B4.29_-_The_12_characters

http://manchusky.manjusa.com/tid-369260-page-2.html

http://manchusky.manjusa.com/tid-376111.html

Rajmaan (talk) 20:20, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Transliteration of Chinese characters into the Manchu script
https://kobe-cufs.repo.nii.ac.jp/index.php?action=pages_view_main&active_action=repository_action_common_download&item_id=1483&item_no=1&attribute_id=22&file_no=1&page_id=13&block_id=17

http://www.for.aichi-pu.ac.jp/museum/pdf8/takekoshi101.pdf