Talk:Manga/Archive 2

Predicting the future...
I wonder if this sentence (in the last paragraph of International Influence) borders on peering into the crystal ball and is out of Wikipedia's realm:


 * As manga's popularity grows and the manga market continues to expand, it may still be difficult for these cartoonists to break out of fan circles, because of their lack of exposure to a broader view of comics beyond mainstream manga.

I didn't want to take it out without consulting the folks who've invested lots of time into this article.

cluth 01:19, May 5, 2005 (UTC) Your right this needs to be made NPOV or removed. I did it as a compromise rewrite of anotehr POV statment that was the other way and it didn't work out quite right.

--Neilworms 05:11, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Wiki articles are not supposed to speculate on the future. The most important things are facts and current pieces of information. KyuuA4 21:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Better pictures?
All the pictures in this article are covers of manga collections. Seems to me like the actual comics inside would be a better illustration. Sadly, I have no scanner, or I would do it myself. DenisMoskowitz 02:48, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

Nice idea, but how would we deal with copyright? Kawa 23:04, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The insides of books aren't any more copyrighted than the outside, and we have plenty of covers already. Seems like it would be fair use. DenisMoskowitz 14:50, 2005 July 18 (UTC)
 * Fair enough - I'll do some scanning tomorrow and look up the copyright lables; I've got the second RuroKen and the first Utena volumes (US release), hopefully that'll do until we find more. Kawa 18:13, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, I now have a scanner, so I've scanned a page from Marmalade Boy (it's what I have in Japanese) to use as an example. If someone has a better example, feel free to change the image.  I think that any example image should have some manga-typical content such as "panel that's just a piece of the background" or "impressionistic backdrop", etc. DenisMoskowitz 04:01, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

MegaTokyo
Megatokyo is not a manga. It is an online comic created by a white male in america. The title manga implys that it constitutes as a japanese comic, which MegaTokyo is not.


 * Under that "definition" - it would imply that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a non-Japanese to ever produce manga. Art styles are trainable as people can learn it.  Plenty of non-Japanese can draw the manga art style. Perhaps not professionally, but that number can grow. KyuuA4 20:13, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I second that. KirbyMeister 02:54, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree. MegaTokyo isn't even available to buy in Japanese...Doinkies 05:08, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Megatokyo is a manga in a sense it is a comic. However...I agree that Megatokyo shouldn't belong in the manga article because it is an Amercian comic.--Kiba 18:12, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
 * MegaTokyo is Shojo-ai if I ever saw it. Fred Gallagher himself identifies it as a dojinshi. And not putting it in because it's not japanese? Please. Manga is a merger of japanese art and Walt Disney stuff. MegaTokyo may not be very good anymore, but it's definetly manga.--Xzilenifo 01:46, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


 * MegaTokyo would only be appropriate under the international influence section, or under an article about westren comics (Amerimanga, OEL etc.) that are HEAVILY influenced by manga, but not really japanese. I think that manga should be specifically about Japanese comics made in Japan by artists who are published originally in Japanese publications. In addition Xzilenifo assumes that manga conforms to one particular base style, but this is far from the truth. While one could find manga that looks kind of like Gallagher's work in mainstream publications, if one looks a bit deeper, he'll find that the art styles in Manga are quite diverse. Finally, there are some issues with assuming (see Frederick Boilet), where an artist who is living in Japan but is originally from another country publishes works that are manga, but these issues are rare and generally I feel that the rule should be that it refers to comics originally published in Japan by artists who are currently affiliated with Japanese publishers.--Neilworms 23:28, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I agree with that definition. Kia Asamiya's latest works, by that standard could not be called manga, and his X-Men run, though clearly using western characters could hardly be confused with the rest of American comicdom.  Yet those X-Men stories were not published in Japan first (or at all, as far as I know).  Asamiya during that time (and still does, I believe) live in New York.  I have no problem with showing that Megatokyo is part of international influence, but to not call it a manga is no different than calling Asamiya (or anyone else comic artists or cartoonists).  In the end, it's a matter of labels, but labels are important to some people.--み使い Mitsukai 23:49, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I can agree with that definition, even though Tokyopop is starting to blur the lines with their Rising Stars of Manga contest. My understanding of manga is that it is a comic or graphic novel originally published in Japan, hence style and artist/author is irrelevant outside of that definition. However, it should be noted that there is a developing global art style that is called manga that uses the big eyes, small mouth of stereotypical Japanese manga and anime. - Darkstar949 05:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Why should it be called manga then? I mean, to me it seems that the only reason "Rising Stars of Manga" is called manga is because Tokyopop declared it so.  It always seemed like cultural appropriation to me, although that term is disputed.  ColourBurst 15:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Cultural appropriation. Now, that's a great term.  This is exactly the phenomenon we see here.  Particularly, this was how anime/manga developed.  The large eyes in particular did not exist until Japan saw increased exposure to the West. So tThrough cultural appropriation, the Japanese adopted some Western themes and incorporated into their own.  The West influenced Japan, and now Japan influencing the West.  "Influence" is a two-way street. KyuuA4 20:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

And so, just like anime, the definition of manga is being blurred when those non-Japanese demonstrate capabilities of drawing manga-style. See the book, Manga without Borders. KyuuA4 19:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Differences
Ok, this might sound stupid, but what exactly is the difference between Seinen and Shonen? Is it the romance, the violence? I dunno, maybe it's cyclical, in which case the two categories should be merged, in my opinion. Anyway, I'd appreciate any clarification. --Xzilenifo 01:41, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Seinen is aimed at more mature readers, with a broader spectrum of subjects covered. 85.226.122.205 21:20, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Shounen is the most popular category, aimed at young boys & teens. Seinen deals with more mature topics and is aimed at older readers. 202.65.149.2 17:02, 14 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Whether a manga is shounen or seinen (or redikomi/josei, shoujo, kodomo or adaruto for that matter) has nothing to do with the manga itself. The genres (or maybe more accurately, target audience labels) are used for the manga magazines, and calling a manga e.g. Seinen only means that it originally ran in a Seinen magazine. In Japanese bookstores, the tankoubon versions of manga are divided into sections based on the target aucience of the magazine the manga ran in.


 * Ok, thanks for the clarification.--Xzilenifo 05:06, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite
More of a reorganization, actually. I split out the List of manga distributors and Manga outside Japan into their own articles, and then rearranged the order of the sections to make it flow better. Let me know what you think. --nihon 03:40, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Origins section
Just wanted to point out that there are a lot of grammatical errors in the Origins section (mostly pluralization of nouns for some reason). I don't have the time at the moment to go over it but if nobody else does it, I'll try to do it some time in the next few days. &mdash; flamingspinach | (talk) 22:14, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Anime adaptions
"A small amount of the total Manga output of Japan (is adapted into anime ...)" is not incorrect, but not very to the point. I would prefer "Popular Manga ...", inferring the former. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.221.122.63 (talk &bull; contribs).


 * I rephrased it to "Popular manga ..." as written above. I also deleted the section "which is usually created afterwards" since calling the anime an "adaption" already infers that it is made after the original was created. However, I suppose the writer was intending to refer to the fact that some anime is adapted into manga, so I added a sentence about that also. Erikku 04:29, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Did a non-native speaker write this article? I'm cleaning up all the grammatical errors. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.7.13.97 (talk &bull; contribs).

Lacking and biased article
Almost no word on classic manga (no word on Hadashi no Gen, one of the most important mangas ever, just to name an example). In the other hand, there are lots of mentions of manga titles who are "hot" today. A band of little boys wrote this?
 * Possibly. I've been trying to create articles on older titles (e.g., Highschool! Kimen-gumi, Kiteretsu Daihyakka) in the hopes that they will get some exposure over here. They are certainly well known in Japan. (^_^) --日本穣 02:44, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

If we are to mention classic manga, I nominate BlackJack, Drifting Classroom or Doraemon.

International Influence section
American alternative comics artists such as Scott McCloud were somewhat influenced by manga in a few of their works.

This sentence seems a bit vague to me. I'm not that familiar with Scott McCloud so perhaps someone else could expand on it a bit.

Also, is the title not a bit ambiguous? It might be taken to mean international influence on Manga. Thoughts? Iron Ghost 20:40, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

If I may add my 2 cents. The title is confusing as to what the influence is, though from the section it's clear its manga's influence on other countries. I think there should be some mention of non-japanese comics in Japan. I remember an interview I read long ago where Jim Lee was talking about his Japanese fans of wild c.a.t.s (or maybe is was x-men).

Also, Frank Miller is not be considered the first american creator to use decompression in a comic book. That would be Wil Eisner and his 1978 "Contract with God," also considered the first graphic novel.

The Miller part seems like name dropping by a fan, especially since they don't even reference a specific piece of work. It would be better to say 'Most noticeably, decompression, where a story is more shown then told to the reader, is prevalent in manga. It could be told over several 'chapters' in a phone book where in an american comic, there may be only one 22 page issue to tell a story. The influence of manga on the mainstream, as well as graphic novels becoming more marketable in america, have allowed for a reemergence of storytelling techniques using decompression in the work of creators such as Neil Gaiman, Warren Ellis and is being used in monthly comics as well.'


 * "Decompression"? This seems like a very fuzzy concept. Could you give examples? 惑乱 分からん 13:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

A early influence that should be cited as to being influenced by manga is Adam Warren. In 1985-86 or so, he got american licensing rights to "Dirty Pair" and "Bubblegum Crisis." He illustrated and co-wrote with "Dirty Pair" creator Takachiho Haruka, several original graphic novels published through Eclipse Comics. I think the Bubblegum Crisis was a adaptation. --Rowenlynn 07:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Mitumega Tooru?
Mitumega Tooru is given as an example of a Tezuka Osamu horror title in the Origins section. I've never heard of it. Anyone else? Iron Ghost 01:10, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I think you mean Mitsume ga Toru.--み使い Mitsukai 02:43, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The official page gives The Three-eyed One as the English title for Mitsume ga tōru. The main character Hosuke Sharaku's article also uses that title. Japanese Wikipedia has an article for the manga, see ja:三つ目がとおる. --Kusunose 02:59, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I've changed it to the English title. Iron Ghost 12:18, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

N0minAted
This article is now a Comics Collaboration of the Month! Unforunatley, I dunno that much on Manga and don't read em! So I will just give you details how this article and it's edit should go

There need to be a section "Differences between modern Comic and Manga". This section should have details about differences with american comic books and manga. Explaining about readers will read from back right hand side, while comic you read from left.
 * "Population on Manga", explaining if Manga is popular than Anime, and detials reing about Anime and Manga.

"Age of Manga" explaining about what started manga, how manga was recoginze through out and until now and old mangas that populated(like Akira)
 * A section with little amount of details "Manga in culture", dunno about the name but. This section will focus on manga's turned to videogame, anime or a movie.

Hope this improves the article...
 * "get to work people...xino and out!"&gt;x&lt;ino 02:03, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Lists of Manga by target audience
I have removed the lists of manga by target audience as they are overly long and cut the article in half. The lists are repeated on their relevant subpages (shonen, shojo ect) and there is also a list of manga so I don't believe their loss will be felt, however if there are any objections please leave them here. Iron Ghost 23:41, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

pronunciation
How do you pronounce it? Should say so right after the word is first used in the article. Tempshill 21:53, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

With a hard g. Iron Ghost 22:12, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

exactky how the japanese pronounce itKaraveks voice 00:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

difference between anime and manga
what is it? is anime the video/tv form and manga the written form? - Bagel7


 * Yes, that is correct, sir. Finite 19:05, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


 * thank you. you helped settle an argument ;) - Bagel7
 * No problem. Let me guess, the confusion involved Manga Entertainment ? Finite 20:32, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * no just an argument between me and my brother - Bagel7

Manga genres and characteristics
I feel the wealth of genres about manga should be emphasised and more should be mentioned about the characteristics of manga. What say you? 10/05/06


 * I've added a sub-section under the manga style titled "Characteristics". Open to expansion. 11/05/06


 * Keep the genres -- what about straight romances? I only see same-sex romance themes...Bookgrrl 21:51, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Tezuka
Why is there so much information on Tezuka in the Origins section? It should be cut back to a normal reference. If people want to know more about Tezuka, they can click the link to the article. Furthermore, a lot of vague sentences in this section (uses the word some a lot). Ninja neko 09:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Tezuka's Artistic Influences
I read that Tezuka was influenced as much by Fleischer Studios as by anything Disney did. Look at a picture of Betty Boop. Now look at Astro Boy. Can anyone else confirm this influence or give other examples? (I am no Tezuka expert.) The article claims that Disney characters were the inspiration for his art style, and it seems to be that his work resembles Fleischer more than Disney. I am in favor of a side-by-side image being put into that section, showing the faces of Betty and Astro Boy for comparison's sake. I could do it or someone else could. --Iritscen 15:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That would be pretty much the definition of original research. Unless you can find someone besides yourself (preferably a "Tezuka Expert") who has researched this, please leave it out. DenisMoskowitz 19:10, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I also read that, somewhere. Google +Tezuka +Fleischer or something, and see what you could find. 惑乱 分からん 11:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Neo-Manga?
I have no idea what neo-manga is, do you? That's why I ask everyone to research this so we can add it as a new topic or article.

The first I've heard of it was through Scott McCloud's new upcoming 2006 book "Makeing Comics". Link: http://www.scottmccloud.com/makingcomics/

I've put it as a request here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_articles/Culture_and_fine_arts#Manga_.26_Manhwa


 * It's a neologism used to describe Western comics that are influenced by anime and manga. However, there is already a Wikipedia article on the topic, Amerimanga. --TheFarix (Talk) 00:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Bias in the international influence section
Three of the paragraphs are about American influence, one is about French influence, there are talks about webcomics (which are also mostly American) and there is no talk about Chinese Manhua or Korean Manhwa. Isn't that a teeny bit biased for a supposedly "international" influence? --ColourBurst 07:11, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Not much is known in occident on manhua, in contrast with the rising popularity of the manhwa, sorry.


 * This is an English wikipedia, but English is not only spoken in the western world. So I don't think that's an excuse.  --ColourBurst 00:13, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe, but again, nobody know a thing about a manhua it seems. Instead of complaining, do researches and tell us. And for the record, english is not the language of all Occident.

There is no bias, only a lack of knowledges. Enlight us instead of ranting.

Nonsensical comment
terrible how this is all wrong and its supposed to be constantly corrected hmm why did they forget to correct this page? manga is not comics manga is japanese style animation made in america (about the only i know if is the first transformers) mangas is japanese comics made in japan —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.96.23.171 (talk • contribs).
 * Please sign your comments using ~, and try to make sense if you expect a reply. Thank you. Shinobu 10:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Adding pronunciation(?)
Well, I believe more than a handful of people have been asking about the pronunciation of "manga," and. . . my edits keep disappearing, meaning somebody is unhappy about it. :,( So, I'm just wondering then, may we add a section just to prounciation (like my suggestion in the anime discussion) with both the hiragana/Japanese pronunciation of the word and (as much as I hate it) the "English" pronunciation of the word? --Deadcandy 19:58, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The edit summary indicates why your edits were removed... so you don't have to guess at the problem. There is only one approved Wikipedia standard for pronunciation, IPA. Notinasnaid 08:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but some people didn't indicate which part of the history was edited, so, I did have to guess in terms of which of my entries were previously edited. xp Well, I say add another section because most people who use Wikipedia have not taken linguistics or rather, have not heard of the IPA. Besides, reading the IPA section is a handful in itself. So, why not just add another section with easier forms of pronunciation? Although, yes, I am generalizing, there are plenty of people who are always asking how "manga" ought to be pronounced, and the IPA isn't as helpful when we just want a quick answer to a simply problem. And even just referring or being redirected to the IPA isn't helpful because nobody has put up pronuncations for "manga" (or it has been edited out.) xp Anybody want to do a IPA pronuciation of manga then?--Deadcandy 19:56, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * While I do have some support for your view that not everyone reads IPA, and I don't read it myself, Wikipedia policy is to provide IPA only. So far as I know. But wait: I checked Manual of style (pronunciation). It says (did it before?) "Pronunciation transcriptions based on traditional English spelling are deprecated. Forms such as pro-NUN-see-AY-shun may be misinterpreted by people whose first language isn't English. They can however be used in addition to the IPA version so that it's easy for people who don't know the IPA to understand them. It may also be helpful to add comments such as 'rhymes with...' or 'stress on the first syllable'." Notinasnaid 20:15, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Sex manga= Vandilism?
Ok sure, we all see the section that says "SEX MANGA", but is that vandilism or actual article..... If no one cares, I'm going to rename the section and disclude any reference to "sex manga" in the section, they already have an artice on it..

~Vninja~

Nevermind, couldn't edit it anyway, probly a glitch in the system or something... ~VNinja~

not familiar when not animated
From the introduction: "Manga is sometimes mistakenly called "anime" by those not familiar when not animated." Let me tell you that I am never familiar when I am not animated. I only start being familiar when I am animated! --131.111.8.96 01:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * :-) Seriously though, that needs to be rephrased a bit. Shinobu 07:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Repitition
Hello, just reading through the article, and i noticed that in the Manga style/characteristics and Manga style/Manga symbols, theres quite alot of repetition: mainly the list of manga symbols. maybe the list should be taken out of the characteristics section? im not a good editor, and i wanted to make sure im not stepping on anyones toes here... 62.194.115.176 22:04, 26 November 2006 (UTC)