Talk:Mannheim 1914 chess tournament

I added the relevant input from my discussion page --DaQuirin (talk) 00:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Tournament results
I have created an article Mannheim 1914 chess tournament with two crosstables (Meisterturnier and Hauptturnier A). Have you any information on final results of Haupturnier B or C (Brach and Rudniev won) there? -- Mibelz (talk) 15:57, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi Mibelz, good work, I found the results of the "Hauptturnier B" (and of the "Nebenturniere" which are not relevant enough in my view). I will add that information, takes one day or two. Just one comment: Hallégua (the mysterious man) etc. did not "win" the aborted tournament, strictly speaking. So, Hallégua (Halegua, I found out, is a Sephardic jewish name, still common in Istanbul), did not become "Meister des Deutschen Schachbundes" (which corresponded to an IM title or even more). --DaQuirin (talk) 12:08, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello! Thanks for an information on Alexander Alekhine Junior.

I have analysed results at Mannheim 1914 which are in http://www.anders.thulin.name/SUBJECTS/CHESS/CTCIndex.pdf Name Index to Jeremy Gaige's Chess Tournament Crosstables, An Electronic Edition, Anders Thulin, Malmö, 2004-09-01. There are the following pages: 439 (18 players) - Meisterturnier (1. Alekhine, ..., 18. Mieses);

440 (17 players) - Hauptturnier A (1. B. Hallegua, ..., 16-17. Gundersen);

441 (20 players) - two groups for 10 players each: 1-4. Asch, van Gelder, Müller P. and Olson (...) and 1. Schubert, 2. Dominik, 3. "Jürgens", 4. Orbach (...);

442 (20 players) - two groups for 10 players each: Probably: 1. Romanovsky, 2. Brach, 3-4. Gargulak and Schapiro, 5. Huber, 6. Hallgarten (...) and 1. "Behrend", 2-5. Geus, Lange, Thoenes and Yurdansky (...)

443 (19 players = 9 + 10): Probably: 1. Brach, 2-4. Schubert, Romanovsky and Yurdansky, 5. van Gelder, 6. Thoenes, 7-8. Schapiro and Thelen, 9. Müller P. and 1. Rudniev 2-4. Schütte, Thelen and Fontein, 5. Wegemund, 6. Rotenstein, 7-8. Bauer and Bergmann, 9. Chwiliwitzky, 10. Aghte.

444 (9 players) - 1. Rudniev, 2. Dominik, 3. Lange, 4. Asch, 5-6. Gargulak and "Jürgens", 7. Hallgarten, 8. "Behrend", 9. Olson.

So, it is a question which one was Hauptturnier B ? -- Mibelz (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * All of them with the exception of the first one (Hauptturnier A). The tournament book (Lauterbach was from Mannheim, and a former librarian of the Mannheim chess club, he collected the information available) and also Feenstra Kuiper, Hundert Jahre Schachturniere, explain that the Hauptturnier B was played in two stages. First the five "Vorgruppen", and the two winner groups (called again A and B which creates a bit of confusion). Information about this special Hauptturnier B is obviously scarce. Gaige has it mixed up a bit, it seems. --DaQuirin (talk) 13:33, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Would you be so kind to send me final results of two winner groups for Hauptturnier B? User:Mibelz 13:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I included them already in the article. There are only two lists without crosstables. Lauterbach (p. 13) gives also the results (only the leading players) of Nebenturnier A (again three groups, 10+10+9), and a Nebenturnier B (10 part.). But here we have completely different names like a certain "Janowsky (Lodz)" and "Weinstein, St. Petersburg"... For the Hauptturnier A he gives the same crosstable you have. (He writes "Hallégua, Paris", probably only the French version of Halegua.) --DaQuirin (talk) 14:00, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Bad news. Though the overall crosstables are identical I found quite a number of differences. For example see Rabinovich vs. Ahues, this can't be true (with differing results in the crosstable). According to Lauterbach, Rabinovich lost against Ahues, made a draw with Asztalos, and won against Studt, Selesniev, Opocenksy, Maljutin and lost against Hilse (and indeed, Hilse has a "1" in your table as well). I offer a clean up, but it's not for today. --DaQuirin (talk) 14:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your good job. I have just added a table for the Hauptturnier B. The crosstables for Meisterturnier and Hauptturnier A are taken from an article Das unvollendete Turnier: Mannheim 1914 (http://www.chessbase.de/nachrichten.asp?newsid=5003). By the way, I have also found some errors there (i.e. Alekhine lost a game to Janowski not to Reti, and Reti had got 7 points not 6.5). From the other side, Dawid Janowski was born in Wołkowysk not in Lodz. Among the internees in August 1914 was Samuil Weinstein from Sankt Petersburg but Gaige did not notice his name in any Mannheim 1914 tournament. Does Lauterbach present all results or crosstables? --Mibelz (talk) 17:10, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * With Chessbase the Rabinovich results are different from your crosstable (as I said, I will check it again). "Janowski (Lodz)" is certainly not the famous David. Weinstein played in the mentioned Nebenturnier (not successful, 3/4 place in one of the groups, that's why Gaige probably does not mention him). Lauterbach gives complete crosstables for the Master tournament and the Hauptturnier A, the final overall results from the two Hauptturnier B winner groups (without crosstables, and giving no detailed info on the - less relevant - preliminary groups, but these will be the ones collected by Gaige). --DaQuirin (talk) 17:38, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

However, if you can improve the article, please do so! --User:Mibelz 18:25, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

PS:"Janowsky (Lodz)" was a brother of Dawid Janowski. See Horst Paulussen, Louis Paulsen, (Detmold 1982, p.129) in a special chapter on August Babel, German (Silesian) chess master (1892-1978) and Paulsen expert (he defeated Janowski's brother in the Nebenturnier). --DaQuirin (talk) 13:04, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Gunnar Gundersen
I am not sure whether Australian flag for Gunnar Gundersen at Mannheim 1914 (Hauptturnier A) is correct. I have found the following information on him: "Gunnar Gundersen (born 11th March 1882 in Bordeaux - died 9th February 1943 in Melbourne). He was New Zealand champion in 1929-30 and 1931-32." (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=72569), and "The Morning Post of 14 September gave an account of the Australian, Gunderson. "There was a hurried pro-rata distribution of the prize-fund, in which those who happened to be present participated, and Mr. Gunderson himself succeeded in getting away to Christiana [now Oslo] at a cost of semi-starvation and extraordinary fatigue, for the train was six days on what should have been a 36 hours' journey, and during that time he had only two meals and ten hours sleep." (http://www.chesscafe.com/text/mannheim.txt).

Perhaps, Norwegian flag ougth to be at his Scandinavian name ?! --Mibelz (talk) 18:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Lauterbach gives "Gundersen, Melbourne" and, possibly more accurate, "Lic. H. Duhm, Straßburg", which for history' sake should mean a German flag in 1914... or was he Swiss indeed? --DaQuirin (talk) 00:20, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * PS: I would restrict the flags to the crosstable section. --DaQuirin (talk) 00:25, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, Hans Duhm (co-winner of Swiss Chess Championship in 1901), as well as Andreas Duhm and Dietrich Duhm (also Swiss champions), ougth to have Swiss flag. PS. I think it would be nice to add Nebenturnier into the article.--Mibelz (talk) 04:14, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * So Duhm probably just studied in Strasbourg, I see. Nebenturniere, are they really relevant? But one could add the winners, why not. --DaQuirin (talk) 08:33, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Do it yourself, please! I am going to Turkey for my holidays (two weeks) tonight. --User:Mibelz 11:24, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Schubert
I have just created an article František Schubert (1894-1940), and now ... I am afraid that my note on his participation at Mannheim 1914 chess tournament perhaps is wrong. Jeremy Gaige presents Schubert (without first name) at New York 1886 and 1887 (one player - American?), at Cologne 1898, Munich 1900 (the same or another player - German or Austrian?), at Pilsen 1911, Vienna 1915, Prague 1921 (second or third player - František Schubert), and Mannheim 1914 (who ?). Does Lauterbach give his first name? --Mibelz (talk) 13:41, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Lauterbach writes "Schubert (Vienna)", so this is unclear in my view. It could be possibly him. --DaQuirin (talk) 22:15, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Player nationalities
I cleaned up the article formatting a bit, but I left the player nationalities alone even though they are often very confusing. I really don't know what is supposed to mean. Was Duhm German, Swiss, or both? There are other entries like this. Also the inclusion of cities for several but not all of the masters also seems odd. Probably this should be cleaned up too. In cases where the player nationality is hard to explain that detail is perhaps best left to the bio page on the player. Quale (talk) 01:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
 * from Switzerland: Hans Duhm (Germany)

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Rabinovich: Ilya or Abram?
A Russian player named Rabinovich played in the A tournament, and was among the Russian internees when World War I broke out. The crosstable of the Hauptturnier A on only shows last names and it reads "Rabinowitsch". Of the online sources (not behind a paywall) present in the article, only Edward Winter's Chess Notes gives an initial of his first name. The chess note in question ("3540. The internees") is a letter from a reader, who cites Bogoljubow – The Fate of a Chess Player by Sergei Soloviov:

"‘In his book Bogoljubow – The Fate of a Chess Player (Sofia, 2004) Sergei Soloviov provides some interesting biographical material. Pages 18-22 cover the period of the First World War, and Soloviov states that “11 Russian players” from the interrupted Mannheim tournament were interned by Germany after the declaration of war against Russia. He names them as Bogoljubow, Flamberg, Selesniev, Alekhine, I. Rabinovich, Bohatirchuk, Maliutin, Romanovsky, Weinstein, Saburov and Koppelman."

On the basis of this piece of information, understandably Rabinovich has been wikilinked to Ilya Leontievich Rabinovich.

However, while editing Abram Isaakovich Rabinovich I stumbled upon this pdf file among the sources, which lists all the names and their tournament placings from Chess Tournament Crosstables by Jeremy Gaige. There are five entries bearing the last name "Rabinovitch" on pages 212-13: Rabinovitch (with no initials), Rabinovitch, A. I.; Rabinovitch, E.; Rabinovitch, G. I; and Rabinovitch, I. L.. "Mannheim, 1914" is listed under "Rabinovitch, A. I.". The doctoral thesis Storming Fortresses: A Political History Of Chess In The Soviet Union, 1917-1948 by Michael Hudson of the University of California, Santa Cruz also says it was «Abram Isaakovich Rabinovich (1878- 1943)» who played in Mannheim 1914 on page 30, also citing Soloviov's Bogoljubow – The Fate of a Chess Player as the source.

Maybe someone who has read that book or Mannheim 1914 and the Interned Russians (2014) by Anthony J. Gillam could settle the matter. Or someone who has access to the British Newspaper Archive could check if Rabinovich's initial/forename is mentioned in the CHESS article. --Sophia91 (talk) 20:56, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm quite sure it was Ilya (IL Rabinovich) who took part in the Mannheim 1914 Hauptturnier A. Tony Gillam's book uses his name throughout - and reproduced texts written by Romanovsky and Alekhine also speak of his presence/participation. Another reliable source is The Soviet School of Chess by Kotov and Yudovich. Not to mention The Oxford Companion.. and Di Felice. It seems that this error of Gaige's (repeated by Rod Edwards on the Edo website) may stem from an original omission by Feenstra-Kuijper in his 1964 book. Oddly, they all agree that Ilya played in the various Triberg internment events that followed, so I'm not sure why they didn't spot the inconsistency. - Brittle heaven (talk) 01:50, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, E Rabinovich (mentioned above) also relates to Ilya. It comes from Elias, which was his nickname. In respect of the Ilya Rabinovich page, it may be best not to have such a positive statement about the result of the Mannheim event. The tournament was unfinished, so it is more about who was leading, rather than who won or finished second. Brittle heaven (talk) 02:17, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for clearing that up. After editing I.L. Rabinovich's article and checking the pdf file again, it occured to me, too, that it makes no sense that A. Rabinovich played in Mannheim 1914, and then I. Rabinovich took over from him in other tournaments in Germany in the same year, but I wanted to wait for reliable sources to confirm that. Sophia91 (talk) 18:32, 29 January 2021 (UTC)