Talk:Marc Dreier

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Please indicate under categories that he is a Polish Jew.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1228728209076&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/Printer —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adamantiaf (talk • contribs) 13:01, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Hello,

This is the first time I am trying to edit an entry -- please forgive and correct me if I am going about it the wrong way.

I have been trying to remove portions of the "Traub, Bonacquist & Fox" section -- portions that are factually incorrect, misinterpret the cited sources, defame Mr. Paul Traub -- and that are irrelevant to this article. The same content appears in eToys.com article (where it really belongs) and I plan to correct the facts on that page. But since the content I will be adding is not related to Marc Stuart Dreier -- it discusses a case he was not involved in at all -- I think it does not belong to this entry.

I think the only portions of the "Traub, Bonacquist & Fox" section that _do_ belong to this article is a statements about TB&F firm merging with and into Dreier LLP. Most of the rest is completely tangential. Finally, the statement that Dreier's fraud would have been mitigated had the courts handled eToys.com bankruptcy differently is nothing but conjecture; the document given as a reference for this statement does not support this theory.

How can I clean up this article now that I have used up my "remove" allowance?

W Cwir at Saylor (talk) 16:59, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Here again -- having brushed up on Wikipedia rules about proper sources, original research, opinion and biographies of living persons I believe it is not improper for me to edit the "Traub, Bonacquist & Fox" section of this article. I would like to ask those who believe my edits violate the Wikipedia rules to contact me, and, in case we cannot work this out between ourselves, I propose we ask editors familiar with the rules to help us make sure that this article is properly sourced, does not contain opinion or original research, and does not stray from the topic of this article.

W Cwir at Saylor (talk) 05:51, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Shenanigans
I did not describe Mr. Traub's slight of hand courtroom etiquette, as "shenanigans", another did. see: http://cache.zoominfo.com/CachedPage/?archive_id=0&page_id=1254369359&page_url=%2f%2flawprofessors.typepad.com%2fbusiness_law%2f2005%2fweek30%2findex.html&page_last_updated=9%2f27%2f2005+1%3a40%3a05+AM&firstName=Paul&lastName=Traub The Wall Street Journal Source is all about the Traub/Etoys dilemma. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB112225421997794579.html?mod=todays_us_money_and_investing and http://wjfa.net/bk/bk_etoys.html

It must be quite difficult to spend your time repairing the reputation of a client who, caught between a rock and a hard place wants to give the ostensible appearance of a man with a stellar reputation. It is unfortunate that the facts belie that.

I am not on anyone's team. Invalidating comments are not welcome here. You are being paid to alter the facts. I created the Dreier page after his arrest and continue to contribute to it. I research and add. That Mr. Traub has been caught in a spider's web between two criminals, Petters and Dreier is not the best predicament to be in, but the facts are the facts, sourced with court documents which i have read and researched.

I am certain any error I have made can be corrected without deletions. "Alleged" is permissible. If he wants to clarify how much money he made on the case, if it was a different amount, please edit. Just because you don't like the facts, you cannot delete. That is your opinion imposed on the page.

Wikipedia is neither Martindale-Hubbell nor "Who's Who in American Lawyers". It is a sourced and footnoted reference guide.

Water seeks its own level. Mr. Traub made his bed and he must sleep in it. When an officer of the court commits a fraud on the court and because of collegial relationships he is able to avoid prosecution by altering and expunging the court records and forcing honest people out their positions, he has been granted a gift, albeit an unethical one. Only criminals do that.

You must detest working for such a dishonest client, and detest your boss for assigning you this case. If I had my way, I would have him investigated in the Dreier case. He is self-destructive. Eventually his pattern will catch up with him. Everyone's does.

If you desire, I will be happy to create a Paul Traub page with all its accolades and reprimands. This section is merely a snapshot of an ongoing case that continued during his sojourn with Dreier and continues today. Only he knows what other unethical behavior went on there, of which I am certain he has absolutely no desire to share. The etoys page is linked here for added information which is standard procedure. It makes it easier on the reader to cross-reference.

You have been cautioned not to delete sourced work product without replacing it with correct facts or you will be blocked from contributing. That is no fun at all. so stop! Mr. Traub is a public figure as I have previously advised. You sleep with dogs, you wake up with fleas. Let the chips fall where they may.

Furtive admirer (talk) 15:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Response to Furitive admirer's warning about edits to Traub, Bonacquist & Fox section
Your warning is noted. I considered it carefully, and I chose to undo your edit with full understanding of possible consequences of doing so after receiving a warning.

That's because I believe my edits adhere to the policy stated at the top of this page:

"This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or if there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard."

If you do not agree, then your interpretation of "poorly sourced" and "potentially liabellous" differs from mine. Of course it is possible that your interpretation is correct and mine is not. Let's resolve this misunderstanding by following Wikipedia procedures for resolving misunderstandings about biographies of living persons.

In the meantime, I will undo your latest edit in order to remove the controversial material from the page. I hope you agree that since this material is causing an argument between people who have carefully studied the eToys case, it is by definition "controversial". So let us keep it off the page unless and until the dispute over whether it is properly sourced is resolved.

W Cwir at Saylor (talk) 17:48, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Edit war in progress
There is presently an edit war in progress. a pr Agency representing Paul Traub, the co-chair of the Bankruptcy unit in Dreier's firm is reverting all sourced contributions including court documents and notes.

The Saylor company has been retained and is being paid to revert the edits on the Dreier page in the Traub, Bonacquist and Fox section, retaining only a promotonal advertisement for his present digs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Saylorcompany

When she was admonished she created her own screen name: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:W_Cwir_at_Saylor and continued to revert edits related to his history and backstory with Dreier, regarding an ongoing and current case. Mr. Traub is protecting his reputation from further damage, but that is for Who's Who among American Lawyers and Martindale-Hubbell.

This is an objective page, not a biased one with an agenda. She has been warned she is biased, and the vandaliam must cease. I have advised her I will gladly start a Paul Traub page which will not be abridged as this is; he is now a public figure appearing in all media venues. Please ban her because of lack of objectivity. She is being enriched by her endeavor to protect Mr. Traub from the Court of Public Opinion.

Furtive admirer (talk) 18:17, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Quite apart from any conflict of interest issues -- why exactly is the long piece about Mr. Traub in this article? Just because something is referenced doesn't mean it belongs in Wikipedia.  There should be a connection between the text and the subject of the article, to say the least.  Other than Dreier's company owning Traub's company, it doesn't appear that any of Traub's alleged misdoings have any connection to Mr. Dreier.  Since that appears to be the case, I would think at this point that it should be removed, with at MOST a short sentence or two summarizing it left behind.  As the first point says, Wikipedia isn't here to get the truth out about Mr. Traub, and especially not in an article about Marc Dreier. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 19:10, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you ArglebargleIV for helping us figure out whether the material that caused the "edit war" belongs in this article. About the conflict of interest issue, should I respond to that? And if so, is this the proper place to hash it out? -- W Cwir at Saylor (talk) 19:26, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * au contraire. tres relevent. most of the case appeal occurred under the roof of Dreier LLP and continues. Mr. Traub's resume includes perpetrating a fraud on the court which caused many resignations by honest people. It was covered up by a series of judges and a us attorney who had no business reverting decisions a trustee made and a court ordered. he was a personal friend and threw business his way (kMart). perhaps, there was something in it for him; he was a g-man.


 * Water seeks its own level, and Mr. Traub has found shallow water with Dreier. He headed for the hills and it should be duly noted there was definitely more going on at Dreier than simply moneylaundering by Dreier acting alone. It is longer than expected, but the backstory is essential to the methods under Dreier's supervision and an internal link to Petters who is presently in the same predicament if not worse, than dreier. both were income providing partners.  the article would be incomplete without traub's sleight-of-hand techniques, not to mention the favors he owes a lot of colleagues in the incestural bankruptcy courtrooms. besides the reverter is being paid by traub to post a promotional advertisement where he can be located in his new digs, which is not allowed. there is the new york times for that.


 * she has not corrected one fact. she wants them obliterated from the record without explanation, as he does in the courts where he messes up. i do plan to create a page of his own with more detail. at that time we can consider an abridged section here with a link.  he is a self-created public figure.


 * Furtive admirer (talk) 19:47, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * At this point, I don't think either of you should be editing the article with regard to Mr. Traub -- it appears to me that you both have conflict-of-interest issues -- W Cwir at Saylor due to being one of Traub's representatives, and Furtive admirer due to a stated desire to "get the truth out", which can be considered incompatible with the requirement to present issues in a neutral point of view. Both of you should be discussing it here instead of reverting each other back and forth. We need a few more eyes on this -- perhaps an Request for Comment would be a good idea, maybe I'll put one together tonight. I've removed the Traub text at issue from the article for now.  I think that having any more than a short note here about Traub is inappropriate -- perhaps the right place for a short summary would be a separate article about Dreier's firm? -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 19:55, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I concur with ArgleBargle. This material may belong at an article about Traub, OR an article about the firm (but not both, as notability is not inherited), it may even belong at the articles about the companies involved, but it does NOT belong at an article about Drier. Removal of the materials should stand. As for the Saylor representative, if she's here representing Drier, she'll be leaving after this, if she represents Traub, she's SOL when the material moves to the right place. ThuranX (talk) 21:33, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I concur with ArgleBargleIV also. I feel that FurtiveAdmirer should lay off making edits about this sort of thing - see, and other easily googleable mentions. This text addition almost amounts to original research, and is full of peacock terms. Chase me ladies, I&#39;m the Cavalry (talk) 23:28, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

what is a peacock term? you are good. i am going to google you also. i don't like invalidators even if they are in the cavalry...is that the cavalry chapel? what is SOL? Furtive admirer (talk) 23:36, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what SOL is, and I'm not in the Cavalry. A peacock term is explained at WP:PEACOCK. Chase me ladies, I&#39;m the Cavalry (talk) 23:55, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * ok. i get peacock but you are definitely (peacock?) inscrutable!  i think you should remove the remaining section that still exists.  it says nothing about dreier and is just an advertisement for his new digs.  i began the dreier page when he was arrested.  check out the history. i don't know any of the parties; just an objective contributor that has uncovered lots of criminal goings on. anyone can refute it with facts.  i have court documents and transcripts of admissions. deleting the truth invalidates wikipedia; don't you agree?  i've done much research and if i use peacock terms, they were taken from the sources, not my personal opinion.  i believe his track record in the dreier firm is quite relevant.  lots of malfeasance in that office, and more lawyers are being investigated and subpoenaed.  as it is written now, it gives an ostensible appearance that he found a fresh start with no questions asked or consequences thereof. and as others have said, if it is not part of the dreier firm, it should be removed.


 * Furtive admirer (talk) 00:22, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

How long before this page is unlocked? there are other newsworthy items to include on the page. and the traub, bonacquist and fox section is irrelevant now. should be reverted or deleted entirely. reads like a press release as it stands. Furtive admirer (talk) 01:05, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Dreier was sentenced yesterday to 20 years in prison. He also admitted why he committed the crimes that he did (failed sense of accomplishment due to debt and a failed marriage). He stated he began by invading a client's settlement and then moved on to arranging fraudulent investments before moving on to the fake hedge fund loans.Gdidaniels (talk) 14:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gdidaniels (talk • contribs) 14:38, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Kindly unlock this page
it has been almost two months since this page was locked. if you want to stay current, new facts should be added. he was sentenced in early july and his penthouse was sold, among other things. i would think if the administrator who locked this page, would continue to rectify the issue and not just fly away to Neverland. thanx. Furtive admirer (talk) 22:47, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

again, if you choose to keep the status unavailable to the regular "peons", then please do a service and update his sentencing hearing outcome. as it stands you are doing a disservice to the integrity of the page.

Furtive admirer (talk) 22:31, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Documentary/movie "Unraveled"
I see the documentary "Unraveled" is obliquely mentioned at the bottom in a list of the Timeline of event. I think the documentary needs a more prominent display on the page - maybe it's own section - I say this because I ran across the documentary elsewhere and had never heard of it even though I had been to/read the Marc Drier page previously - like a lot of people, I skipped the timeline of events.Betathetapi545 (talk) 08:49, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Kovachev and Miller
I don't see why these people are on this page. If they are notable then they should have their own. Mentioning a tie to Dreier is fine but it needs to be trimmed down.--SimpleStitch (talk) 16:46, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110817042640/http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-03-31/dreier-linked-ex-broker-gets-46-months-in-prison-update1-.html to http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-03-31/dreier-linked-ex-broker-gets-46-months-in-prison-update1-.html

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