Talk:Marlboro/Archives/2012

Brands?
Why have all the Marlboro brands been removed? (Lights, Smooth, Menthol, etc.) I found this to be useful. -thewolrab 22:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Lacking in Information
Marlboro has been an american cultural icon for better than 100000 years, albeit a hazardous one. I find this article incredibly lacking in information. I will try to add things, as I find them.

Cigarettes for racists?
C'mon. That doesn't belong here. It's not even attributed.

I have removed the offending section. No source, racist, and completely unverifiable unless the 'study' conducted racial profiling which is completely unacceptable here. Also, the info is of little use to anyone but marlboro's PR/ad company. 3dom 22:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Removed Blend No.72
There is no Blend No.72. 72 is the length of the cigarette.

Please note their is a blend no.27.

is there a way to confirm that 72 is not a blend, but only refering to its length? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.89.150.198 (talk) 10:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

photo
Someone should add an image.

Get rid of the marlboro pic please

Why would we do that? ~  Butros ( Talk ) 11:44, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

The photographs of ALL tobacco products should be removed from Wikipedia because it is letting a deadly product to be advertised for free, which is morally and ethically wrong. Tobacco kills millions of people each year. It is not necessary at all to have pictures of these products on Wikipedia, and if people are searching for pictures of tobacco products, then they can use a search engine, not Wikipedia. Please do not let photos/pictures of tobacco products be placed on Wikipedia. I am removing the photographs from this page. Thanks, Gillies corner 12:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Not some politically correct tool to push a POV on others. This includes avoiding adding pictures because of a "moral" purpose.  68.146.118.145 23:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

So we should remove photos of alcohol, weapons, natural disasters and even cars?

This is an encyclopaedia, Gillies Corner, take your nanny-state PC drivel somewhere else. --Hayden5650 04:38, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Bravo, Hayden!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.34.131.253 (talk) 21:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC) it s true...information should not be censored even under the pretext of...""saving america's youth""..i think wikipedia has been more than etichal in regards to marlboro...if you search it...the link to it appears at the bottom of the page for example.you are not taken directly to the page..what would happen if they would remove all the pictures from the BDSM page or the zvastica from the nazism article.then people looking for info on the subject will be forced to look for pictures of what they are reading about in very shady web pages(talking specifically about nazism here..not really bdsm..although if you do a search on google you will get a lot of disturbing images more relating to sadism and mental disorders than to the bdsm practice).the best place to get an ideea for any onformation is an encyclopedia...i ve never heard anyone saying that they got hooked on cocaine after searching for the meaning in webster's —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.78.214.202 (talk) 01:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Marlboro Light- Marlboro Gold
Why the name change? --Richy 20:23, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Because calling it light was causing misunderstandings. "Light" looks like a less dangereous product but it isn't. So Marlboro changed the name.

There was a court ruling which basically forced the change.

That was only in a few countries, you can still by the whole selection under their normal names here in New Zealand --Hayden5650 04:39, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Tobacco does not kill millions per year only hundreds of thousands, tobacco was the foundation of the USA. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

After all John Smith forced the colonists of Virginia to grow tobacco so that the Virginia Company could get their money back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.34.131.253 (talk) 21:32, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Inapproprate?
The discussion of PM, cigarettes, cancer, etc. should be moved to the PM entry frankly. I fail to see what this has to do specificaly with the brand.

Because Marlboro is an entity under PM, just like PM is under Altria. --Hayden5650 04:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Not Neutral
There are a number of phrases in this article that are geared towards Philip Morris. Looks more like a comercial than an encyclopedia article.

I specified the "criticisms" section as the one that is not neutral; the rest seems fine to me. I don't know quite enough to fix this; I believe that the "allegations" were all discussed in court cases against Philip Morris, and hence the reason why they post that smoking is bad for health. Companies like Camel had to take down advertising targeted toward children; while I do not know if PM did that, it wouldn't surprise me since children are one of the easiest groups to target and will probably stick to a brand name for life. I also don't see how it's "popular belief" that PM never says that smoking is bad; they are required to put a Surgeon General's warning on all boxes of cigarettes. Citations are needed to substantiate the claims like "activists liken the sale of addictive cigarettes to illegal addictive substances like cocaine or heroin" and "activists also allege that the tobacco industry, including Philip Morris, actively markets cigarettes to children, and has in the past has conspired to hide the dangers of smoking from the public". Iamthebob 02:26, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't it make more sense to move the criticism section to an article about Philip Morris than rather have it on a page discussing one of their products? Having criticisms of perhaps how Marlboro had one of the most prolific ad campaigns in history would be more appropriate.--Dragnilar 16:34, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

"Rooftops" (American Marlboro) cigarette brand in Canada
One reason why the Marlboro brand in Canada cannot be used by the "rooftop" label, is because there is already a brand in Canada called "Canadian Marlboros". It is own and manufactured by the British American Tobacco company.

See Link for more information:



redirected article
Please merge this information from merged article back into this one as you see fit. Chris 21:33, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Marlboro is a brand of cigarette made by Altria. It is famous for its billboard advertisements and magazine ads of the Marlboro Man. In 2001 it was the most popular cigarette brand in the U.S. It is currently the best selling cigarette brand in the world

Philip Morris, a London-based cigarette manufacturer, created a New York subsidiary in 1902 to sell several of its cigarette brands, including Marlboro. By 1924 they were advertising Marlboro as a woman's cigarette based on the slogan "Mild As May".

The brand was sold in this capacity until World War II when the brand faltered and was temporarily removed from the market. At the end of the war, three brands: Camel, Lucky Strike, and Chesterfield surfaced and established a firm hold on the cigarette market. However, the 1950s saw an impressive comeback of Marlboro cigarettes when a new cowboy image was introduced in promotion and the sales skyrocketed by 5000%.

During the same era Reader's Digest magazine published a series of articles that linked smoking with lung cancer. Philip Morris, and the other cigarette companies took notice and each began to market filtered cigarettes. The new Marlboro with a filtered tip was launched in 1955.

The brand is named after Great Marlborough Street, the location of its original London factory. Richmond, Virginia, is now the location of the largest Marlboro cigarette manufacturing plant.

List of All Brands
Marlboro (Blend No 27) KS-20-H - USA

Marlboro (Blend No 27) KS-20-S - USA

Marlboro (Extra Mild) KS-25-H - Australia and USA

Marlboro (Lights Menthol) KS-10-H - Guatemala and USA

Marlboro (Lights Menthol) KS-10-S - Dominican Republic and USA

Marlboro (Lights Menthol) KS-20-H - Switzerland and USA

Marlboro (Lights Menthol) KS-20-S - USA

Marlboro (Lights Menthol) L-20-H - USA

Marlboro (Lights Menthol) L-20-S - USA

Marlboro (Lights) KS-10-B - Argentina and USA

Marlboro (Lights) KS-10-H - France and USA

Marlboro (Lights) KS-10-S - Dominican Republic

Marlboro (Lights) KS-14-H - Brasil and USA

Marlboro (Lights) KS-20-H - USA

Marlboro (Lights) KS-20-S - Finland and USA

Marlboro (Lights) KS-25-H - Germany and USA

Marlboro (Lights) KS-4-H - USA

Marlboro (Lights) KS-6-H - USA

Marlboro (Lights) L-20-H - Germany and USA

Marlboro (Lights) L-20-S - USA

Marlboro (Lights) L-4-H - USA

Marlboro (Lights) S-20-H (silver and gold) - USA

Marlboro (Limited Edition) KS-20-H - Switzerland

Marlboro (Medium) KS-10-H - Holland and USA

Marlboro (Medium) KS-14-H - USA

Marlboro (Medium) KS-20-H (white and blue) - USA

Marlboro (Medium) KS-20-H (white and yellow) - USA

Marlboro (Medium) KS-20-H - USA

Marlboro (Medium) KS-20-S - USA

Marlboro (Medium) KS-25-H - Germany and USA

Marlboro (Medium) L-20-H - USA

Marlboro (Medium) L-20-S - USA

Marlboro (Menthol) KS-10-H - USA

Marlboro (Menthol) KS-10-S - Dominican Republic

Marlboro (Menthol) KS-20-H - USA

Marlboro (Menthol) KS-20-S (green 'Marlboro') - USA

Marlboro (Menthol) KS-20-S - Finland and USA

Marlboro (Menthol) KS-4-H (green 'Marlboro') - USA

Marlboro (Menthol) KS-6-H (green name) - USA

Marlboro (Menthol) KS-6-H - USA

Marlboro (Menthol) L-20-H - USA

Marlboro (Menthol) S-20-H (silver and blue) - USA

Marlboro (Menthol) S-20-H (silver and green) - USA

Marlboro (Mild Flavor) KS-20-H - Colombia

Marlboro (Milds Menthol) KS-20-H (white and blue) - USA

Marlboro (Milds Menthol) L-20-H (white and blue) - USA

Marlboro (Rolls Lights) S-20-H - Germany and USA

Marlboro (Rolls) S-20-H - Germany and USA

Marlboro (Special Edition) (Lights) KS-20-TIN PACK - Brazil

Marlboro (Special Edition) (Red) KS-20-TIN PACK - Brazil

Marlboro (Ultra Lights Menthol) KS-20-H - USA

Marlboro (Ultra Lights Menthol) L-20-H - USA

Marlboro (Ultra Lights) KS-20-H - USA

Marlboro (Ultra Lights) KS-20-S - Switzerland and USA

Marlboro (Ultra Lights) L-20-H - USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) (Lights) KS-19-H (picture 16) - Germany and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) (Lights) KS-19-H (picture 17) - Germany and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) (Lights) KS-19-H (picture 18) - Germany and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) (Lights) KS-19-H (picture 19) - Germany and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) (Lights) KS-19-H (picture 20) - Germany and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) (Lights) KS-19-H (picture 21) - Germany and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) (Lights) KS-19-H (picture 22) - Germany and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) (Lights) KS-19-H (picture 23) - Germany and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) (Lights) KS-19-H (picture 24) - Germany and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) (Lights) KS-19-H (picture 25) - Germany and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) (Lights) KS-20-H (picture 26) - Switzerland and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) (Lights) KS-20-H (picture 27) - Switzerland and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) (Lights) KS-20-H (picture 28) - Switzerland and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) (Lights) KS-20-H (picture 29) - Switzerland and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) (Lights) KS-20-H (picture 30) - Switzerland and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) KS-19-H (picture 1) - Germany and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) KS-19-H (picture 10) - Germany and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) KS-19-H (picture 2) - Germany and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) KS-19-H (picture 3) - Germany and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) KS-19-H (picture 4) - Germany and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) KS-19-H (picture 5) - Germany and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) KS-19-H (picture 6) - Germany and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) KS-19-H (picture 7) - Germany and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) KS-19-H (picture 8) - Germany and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) KS-19-H (picture 9) - Germany and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) KS-20-H (picture 11) - Switzerland and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) KS-20-H (picture 12) - Switzerland and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) KS-20-H (picture 13) - Switzerland and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) KS-20-H (picture 14) - Switzerland and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) KS-20-H (picture 15) - Switzerland and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) KS-20-H (picture 26) - Brazil and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) KS-20-H (picture 27) - Brazil and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) KS-20-H (picture 28) - Brazil and USA

Marlboro (collection design 1) KS-20-H (picture 29) - Brazil and USA

Marlboro (collection design 2) (picture 1) KS-20-H - Italy and Switzerland

Marlboro (collection design 2) (picture 2) KS-20-H - Italy and Switzerland

Marlboro (collection design 2) (picture 3) KS-20-H - Italy and Switzerland

Marlboro (collection design 2) (picture 4) KS-20-H - Italy and Switzerland

Marlboro (collection design 2) (picture 5) KS-20-H - Italy and Switzerland

Marlboro (collection design 2) (picture 6) KS-20-H - Italy and Switzerland

Marlboro (collection design 2) (picture 7) KS-20-H - Italy and Switzerland

Marlboro (collection design) (Limited Edition) KS-20-H (picture 1) - Brazil

Marlboro (collection design) (Limited Edition) KS-20-H (picture 2) - Brazil

Marlboro (collection design) (Racing Edition) (picture 2) KS-20-H - Switzerland and Spain

Marlboro (collection design) (Racing Edition) (picture 3) KS-20-H - Switzerland and Spain

Marlboro (collection design) (Racing Edition) (picture 4) KS-20-H - Switzerland and USA

Marlboro (collection design) (Racing Edition) KS-20-H (picture 1) - Switzerland and USA

Marlboro (collection design) (Racing Edition) KS-20-H (picture 1) - Brazil

Marlboro (collection design) (Racing Edition) KS-20-H (picture 2) - Brazil

Marlboro (with cow-boy on horse) KS-20-H (white and blue) - USA

Marlboro (with cow-boy with cigarette) KS-20-H (white and blue) - USA

Marlboro (with cow-boy with cigarette) KS-20-H (white and yellow) - USA

Marlboro (with cow-boy with cigarette) KS-20-H - USA

Marlboro (with cow-boy with cigarette) KS-25-S - USA

Marlboro (with cow-boy with cigarette) KS-3-H - USA

Marlboro (with cow-boy with lasso from behind) (Medium) KS-20-H - USA

Marlboro (with cow-boy with lasso in hands) (Lights) KS-25-S - USA

Marlboro (with cow-boy with lasso on the tree) KS-20-S - Holland and USA

Marlboro (with cow-boy with lasso on the upper arm) KS-20-S - Norway and USA

Marlboro (with cow-boy with lasso on the upper arm) L-20-S - Switzerland

Marlboro (with 'Ferrari') KS-20-B - Australia and USA

Marlboro (with 'Ferrari') KS-20-H - Australia and USA

Marlboro (with 'Ferrari') KS-25-H - Australia and USA

Marlboro KS-10-B (red and white) - Argentina and USA

Marlboro KS-10-H (red and white) - Holland and USA

Marlboro KS-10-H (white and gold) - Greece

Marlboro KS-10-S (red and white) - Dominican Republic and USA

Marlboro KS-14-H (red and white) - Brasil and USA

Marlboro KS-16-H (red and white) - Argentina

Marlboro KS-20-H (red and white) - USA

Marlboro KS-20-H (white and blue) - Brazil

Marlboro KS-20-H (white and gold) - Brazil

Marlboro KS-20-H (white and grey) - Brazil

Marlboro KS-20-H (white and red) - Germany and Greece and Switzerland

Marlboro KS-20-S (red and white) - USA

Marlboro KS-20-S (white and gold) - Brazil

Marlboro KS-20-S (white and grey) - Brazil

Marlboro KS-20-S (white and red) - Germany and Greece and Switzerland

Marlboro KS-25-H (blue and white) - Australia and USA

Marlboro KS-25-H (red and white) - Germany and USA

Marlboro KS-25-S (red and white) - USA

Marlboro KS-3-H (red and white) - USA

Marlboro KS-4-H (red and white) - USA

Marlboro KS-7-H (red and white) - Malaysia and USA

Marlboro L-20-B (red and white) - USA

Marlboro L-20-H (gold and white) - USA

Marlboro L-20-H (red and white) - USA

Marlboro L-20-H (white and gold) - Germany and Greece and Switzerland

Marlboro L-20-S (gold and white) - USA

Marlboro L-20-S (red and white) - USA

Marlboro L-3-H (red and white) - USA

Marlboro L-4-H (gold and white) - USA

Marlboro S-20-H (red and silver) - USA

Marlboro S-20-S (red and white) - USA

Marlboro ULTRA LIGHTS(Japan)(with a lighter)

Marlboro ULTRA LIGHTS(Japan)

Marlboro ULTRA LIGHTS - Japan

Trivia
I would like to remove the trivia section. To mention Marlboro cigarettes in pop culture would create a list that could never be satisfied. the_undertow talk  22:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Misc.
The misc. section should be merged with the rest of the article and the "urban legend" removed from the article all together. An encyclopedia is no place for "urban legends" unless it is the article regarding urban legends. SpigotMap 08:42, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Sports advertising
There's quite a bit of information about Marlboro's sponsorship of car racing teams and the like, but shouldn't there be something about its advertising in sports stadiums in the U.S. and other countries? Since I believe laws and "consent decrees" have resulted in a lot of such advertising being curtailed or eliminated, such information might not be "current," but I do believe it might be of historical interest. 71.142.78.181 02:56, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Why is the first section and majority of this article about the sports sponsorship/advertising? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.170.168.122 (talk) 03:13, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Did anyone notice...
...the comment about the three major brands being smoked mainly by homosexuals? I'm not sure about that one. It just raised a red flag for me. Clarify, anyone? Theothervandagirl (talk) 13:27, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

FSC
I live in NEW ENGLAND and all I find is Fire Safety Cigarettes. I think you did wrong all they do is go out while you are smoking them and when you relight them they give bad taste or the fire falls off on your clothes and burn a hole in them. I believe you should go back the way they were. Thank You. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.62.86.13 (talk) 13:01, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I AGREE WITH YOU NEW ENGLAND ITS TWICED AS HARD TO INHALE MYSELF AND MY HUSBAND HAVE SMOKED MARLBORO FOR OVER 30 YRS BUT HE SAID WE WILL QUIT IF THEY COME SOUTH WE DISLIKE THEM FSC IT MAKES HIS THROAT SORE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.38.122.34 (talk) 02:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Random pop-culture trivia
Deleted the random trivia, kept here for reference:

Miscellaneous
In 1973 Marlboro appears in the famous Soviet comedy "Ivan Vasilievich: Back to the Future" in musical scene.

Since the 1980s an urban myth has spread that Marlboro packaging carried imagery related to the Ku Klux Klan as well as antisemitic remarks. These allegations, although persistent and continuing to the present day, are widely regarded to be false.

The myth surrounds the suggestion that if you turn the pack upside down the typeface spells out "orobljew"--or in the English cockney accent: "horrible Jew". It actually says ojoqljeW. Additionally French students of English are said to use the name Marlboro to recall the English modal-verb phrase "May I borrow".

The motto beneath the coat of arms on the cigarette package is "veni vidi vici" (I came, I saw, I conquered).

No need for it, 1 is a product placement 2 is a myth, third is a memonic and a myth. I suspect the myths are regional and not really signiicant on a worldwide basis.

Why is this all about cars?
This is a pretty iconic brand, sure, but why is the majority of the article about sponsorships of motorsports? Shouldn't it be, uh, about the smokes? NeutronTaste (talk) 00:40, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

No Kidding! As of right now, 2/3's of this entry is about it's sponsership to car racing. ??? I know alot of info has been added and deleted over the years, and theirs a ton of difference of opinions as to what of it is relevent, but it would seem to me reading over the above that all of it was more relevent then the stuff about motor racing. In fact, if it's involvment with motor racing is so big that it takes up so much of the entry, then mayby it should be a entry of it's own. I know that's a bit dumb, but so is this entry in it's current form. Deepintexas (talk) 04:25, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

New Marlboro menthol package?
I work in a well-established convenience store in the United States, and here, we have a newer packaging on Marlboro menthols that looks different than the picture display near the top of this page. Is there any way someone could get a new picture? I also realize sometimes European/non-US packs look different, perhaps someone could take a picture of both? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jherm (talk • contribs) 07:23, April 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Packaging in the UK has changed recently too; at least for Marlboro Gold (which everyone still calls Marlboro Lights even though the word "Light" hasn't appeared on the packet since forever). Mr Larrington (talk) 13:28, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Questions
1) Is the coat of arms based on the British Royal coat of arms? 2) If they're named after Great Marlborough Street, when did they start getting misspelt? Was there originally an apostrophe after the final "o"? 86.164.31.148 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:48, 24 June 2010 (UTC).

Citation
Do we really need the citation for the Menthol Special Blends? I was the one who originally put it there but I just thought it to be unnecessary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.49.37.129 (talk) 20:04, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

New Special Blend
Added a listing for Special Blend Black. We carry it at our store, but I have no idea what it's like/supposed to be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.151.48.185 (talk) 21:35, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

The External Links
Someone should check out the outgoing links especialy the ones ending in .org — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.131.38.57 (talk) 15:03, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Brands Restored + "Cleaned up"
I've restored the brands but removed the sizes, what packaging they arrive in, and the "strength" rating (light, ultralight, etc.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.141.93.53 (talk) 17:19, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The list was removed, because it was a list without context. Articles should be written in prose and lists are acceptable when backed up by prose, or when the list supplements the prose. This list did neither. Your removal of the additional information from the list made it even less valuable. I'm not opposed to having a list of brand varieties, but it needs a little more work.--Atlan (talk) 10:03, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure there is a context. This is an article about Marlboro cigarets and the list is a list of Marlboro cigarets.  Wikipedia has thousands of articles of product lists (e.g., List of Coca-Cola brands) and articles that include lists of products (e.g., Pop-Tarts).  Need of citations and/or further context are not alone reasons to delete material (see WP:RUBBISH and WP:DEMOLISH).   —  AjaxSmack   02:28, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Etymology
What is the meaning or source of the brand name? - Ac44ck (talk) 05:25, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Veni Vidi Vici
Anyone know why they removed that slogan from the banner on the Coat of Arms emblem??? I didn't see any reference to that on the page, but it was removed, and it has been removed sometime within the last 3-5 years. Atleast on the USA packs.

Nyourhead@gmail.com

As of 2007 it is not removed from packs sold in Argentina. Rjgodoy 02:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

It's still on my pack in New Zealand, and also on the packs I got when a friend went for trip to Soviet Union --Hayden5650 04:36, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Also on my packs from Australia

Some Sites Say That They Removed It Because Certain People Thought It Had To Do With The Ku Klux Klan. Go Figure! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.233.158.130 (talk) 16:11, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

“Strength/Flavor” Indicators
I was wondering if there was a reason why there isn’t anything listed regarding what kind of cigarettes each brand is, or at the least what the brands used to be known as (Full flavor, mediums, lights). Maybe putting in parentheses “formerly” or “AKA” after every brand would work. I mean, Marlboro Gold’s are still technically “Lights” based on nicotine content and overall strength and flavor, regardless of whether or not it’s on the pack.

I scanned the talk page and there is no consensus regarding this, so I might assume its just that no one has bothered to get around to it.

--ThelemaCrowley (talk) 12:33, 28 December 2012 (UTC)