Talk:Mary Fagan

Lady Mary Fagan
The College of Arms is the official heraldic authority, and in its April 2018 Newsletter here, it states the following: "Upon her admission to the Order she will be styled Lady Mary Fagan." She is Chair of the Winchester Cathedral Trust, which lists her here as Lady Mary Fagan. In addition, the University of Winchester refers to her as Lady Mary Fagan here. -- Blairall (talk) 01:33, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
 * That is Correct Female companions of the Two highest order are Styled Lady rather than Dame (it's not been an issue with the Garter before as prior Companions have been the wives of Peers or Peer in their own Right). I have edit the page to reflect her correct title

Anomalous Crest
In English heraldry (and indeed most heraldry - Canada being the only exception I know), armigerous females do not use crests. The only exceptions are queens regnant. Has a special exception been made for Lady Mary? I notice that she is the first LG in at least six hundred years (and therefore the only one in since the Edwardian resumption) who is not a princess or peeress, and I wonder if this is the reason:

[| This page] shows the carved garter crests for several knights and ladies of the order in recent decades. Most of the female examples (Thatcher, Soames, Manningham-Buller) are just their coronets, without a crest as such, but of course Fagan would not be entitled to one so would, under normal heraldic practice, have nothing to place here.

Can anyone here give a satisfactory explanation of this? Robin S. Taylor (talk) 00:42, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * You mentioned that her crest is shown here (halfway down that page at "Lady Mary Fagan Garter Crest"), which is the website of a heraldic artist, Ian Brennan (email: ian@heraldicsculptor.com ), so perhaps you could contact him for info. -- Blairall (talk) 21:46, 25 June 2019 (UTC)


 * In addition to information on the crest, I would like to know if anyone can provide the official blazon for Lady Mary's arms. More specifically, when were the arms quartered? What family is represented in the 2nd and 3rd quarters? I enquire with the College of Arms, but was told that British privacy laws now prevent the College from disclosing information on the arms of living individuals. --R. Scott Nourse (talk) 19:55, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

My understanding: she does not have a crest, she has a badge. First, it's extremely unlikely that she, as a woman, would have been granted a crest. The College of Arms has - in its old-fashioned/sexist manner - never granted a crest to a woman, with the exception of a monarch. The only woman who is supposed to have a crest is the Queen - because the monarch is always treated as if they are male for heraldic purposes, including other aspects like having a shield instead of a lozenge. Other women cannot even inherit crests, let alone be granted one. Thus, aside from the Queen, the only other example I have seen of a woman being granted a crest by the College is in the arms of Catherine Tizard. As the Governor-General of New Zealand, she was acting as the monarch on the Queen's behalf. Accordingly, she would've been able to argue that she should have a crest because the Queen has a crest. Fagan could not have argued this. Even though - as Lord Lieutenant of Hampshire - she would have been the Queen's representative in that county, she still wouldn't have had the same responsibilities or status as a Governor-General.

Second, the [| College of Arms January 2019 newsletter] states that Fagan was granted supporters and a badge in her new coat of arms after becoming a Lady of the Garter. It fails to mention the granting of a crest.

Finally, the reason she would need a badge is because otherwise she would have no other heraldic element to place above her stall. All other Ladies of the Garter in the six hundred years before her have had titles that would allow them to use coronets. For instance, Baroness Thatcher had a carved baronial coronet above her stall. Lacking such a coronet, and lacking a crest, Fagan would need a badge to be carved, lest her space look rather empty and sad. Thus, while the heraldic element may appear in the place of a crest, I would argue that it is a badge. I imagine this will be the case for Lady Mary Peters who was also granted a badge (and with no sign of a crest). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.170.205.226 (talk) 15:20, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Garter
Why? 2A00:23C7:E287:1900:C0A9:66F4:F02E:A536 (talk) 23:44, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:06, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Lady Mary Fagan Coat of Arms.pdf