Talk:Masculinizing hormone therapy

Refs
This would benefit from a lot more references. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:03, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Hormone Therapy Real Life Experience (RLE) requirement

 * The Standards of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender Nonconforming People (SOC) require psychological counseling and for the patient to live a period of a time in the desired gender role, in order to assure that they can psychologically function in that gender role. This period is sometimes called the Real life experience (RLE). While this standard was widely followed in the 20th century, a growing number of physicians refuse to follow the Standards of Care, insisting that they are too restrictive and that inhibiting patient access to hormone therapy does more harm than good.

This is badly outdated and references SOCv6. The RLE requirement has been removed from SOCv7 as of 2012. The statements about requiring RLE should be removed from the article and the reference updated to use SOCv7. If no one has a reason not to revise this, I'll do so in a few days. Also WPATH is the main professional organization now, not the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association.

Conversion therapy
It would be a good idea if the article could mention whether hormone replacement therapy has ever been used in the context of conversion therapy, i.e. trying to convert homosexuals into heterosexuals. There are generally two types of homosexuals : those that have too many hormones and those that don't have enough. In this context, it is possible that an appropriate hormonal transfer could have associated effects on sexual orientation. ADM (talk) 14:07, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


 * As usual, reliable sourcing would be best here. Benjiboi. 1:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The source I had in mind was Gunter Dorner, who performed experiments on rats designed to alter their sexual behavior. He reported that the destruction of the ventromedial nucleus in apparently homosexual rats caused them to become heterosexual. Dorner suggested that homosexuality in humans was caused by hormonal factors and should be cured or prevented. ADM (talk) 04:38, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Another case comes from the United Arab Emirates, where a group of homosexual men were reportedly arrested and ordered to undergo government-sponsored hormone treatments, as well as five years in jail. ADM (talk) 05:00, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * As usual you seem to be mixing up issues and conflating ideologies. First off I find "There are generally two types of homosexuals : those that have too many hormones and those that don't have enough." as patently absurd and offensive why you insisted on restoring such a comment is beyond me. Secondly you suggest Gunter Dorner as a source, according to our article - the German Society for Sex Research criticised Dörner‘s research on scientific and moral grounds in 1982. Perhaps leaning on research from the last decade would be more productive. Similar to your completely unhelpful logic that we would in any reasonable way look to the United Arab Emirates in any way enlightened on issues of non-heterosexuality. That source, and the case address homosexuality not gender identity of transmen. Based on your history of loading contentious and baiting statements onto talkpages on subjects you apparently don't approve I consider this case closed but will serve as textbook example of how to stir drama on Wikipedia by conflating various subjects with paedophilia, Michael Jackson, LGBT people and Jewish subjects. -- Banj e  b oi   05:14, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Watch out for the ad hominem fallacy. Also, science tends to preclude morality, on the grounds of utilitarianism, meaning that if people can use hormones to succesfully change sex, there is no reason that owing to their own personal conscience, they could not also use similar hormones to change sexual orientation. The debate isn't about politically correct morality, but about freedom of choice. ADM (talk) 05:24, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

No sources at all
There are no sources at all for Hormone_replacement_therapy_(female-to-male). 12.14.180.12 (talk) 09:34, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I found and added a source, but this article needs a lot more work. I'm not an expert but I will bookmark and revisit to see if I can help add more good sources. Funcrunch (talk) 07:47, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

I think the contraindications may have simply been copied off a pharma website. I'll try to take time out to check them as in 10 years things may have changed. I also find the list of side-effects to be unnecessarily alarmist, so that likely needs revision as well, if only to make it clear that starting T is exactly like going through puberty, with all that entails. Anarchic teapot (talk) 17:06, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Copy/Pastes from femaletomale.org?
Greetings, several sentences seem to be copied from http://www.femaletomale.org/ftm-transitioning-guide/testosterone-hrt/ 80.171.32.87 (talk) 14:17, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Title
There is a title discussion related to this article at Talk:Hormone replacement therapy (male-to-female). A WP:Permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:58, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Transgender hormone therapy (male-to-female) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 09:04, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

History Section
The wikipedia page for feminizing HRT (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminizing_hormone_therapy) has a history section abou the history of the development of feminizing HRT and I think it would be useful for this article to have its own history section. Plasticmae (talk) 21:33, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

GenderGP is not a high-quality source
"Some transgender men may undergo DIY treatments and self-administer testosterone; however, without proper training, this can cause issues such as bruising, irritation, and needle breakages. Self-administration of testosterone for transmasculine people without training or a prescription is considered unsafe and is not recommended by public or private healthcare providers. "

This quote is from the Safety section of this article, and I have removed it. Upon review of the source (https://www.gendergp.com/testosterone-injection-afab/), the many hyperlinks in the source are to sources that have no relation to the claims.

"Injecting at home is extremely risky. "

GenderGP claims that injecting is risky or dangerous. The linked study is "Strategies and challenges for safe injection practice in developing countries" and in the abstract states "Rational and safe use of injections can save many lives but unsafe practice threatens life", and says nothing about the riskiness of injecting. Furthermore, the article is set in the United Kingdom, which is not a developing country.

Untrained self-injection is dangerous.

It can cause:

 * Bleeding

Bleeding is an obviously normal side effect of injections. The linked article to PeaceHealth states "If you see blood in the syringe, it means you might have hit a blood vessel. This usually isn't harmful.", contradicting the statement that bleeding is an indicator of self-injection being dangerous.


 * Needle Breakages may cause a plethora of issues, especially if it affects the tissue, veins, or even the organs.

The linked article is describing the "[breakage] and retention of dental needles within tissues". Testosterone is not injected through the mouth and is obviously not a dental procedure.

Safely Self-Injecting Testosterone, Hormone Blockers, or Estrogen
Before you self-inject, it’s important to have the correct items prepared, so that you don’t cause injury to yourself and others, we’ve created this handy checklist below to ensure absolute safety.

Book Self-Injection for Testosterone for AFABs Training

Clicking on this link right underneath brings me to a page where they ask for £60.00 for a training.

This page reads like a scare advertisement designed to scare people into buying a procedure they don't need. Further research into this source suggests GenderGP is a private online clinic. More googling has discovered that "the retired consultant gastroenterologist [who is running GenderGP] had provided treatment that was not clinically indicated or that had been prescribed without adequate tests, assessments, or examinations". https://www.bmj.com/content/377/bmj.o1357.full

Be wary of other links from GenderGP. It does not appear to be a well-researched source. Calabax (talk) 09:22, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Unaffected characteristics (removed content)
A number of skeletal and cartilaginous changes take place after the onset of puberty at various rates and times. Sometime in the late teen years epiphyseal closure (in other words, the ends of bones are fused closed) takes place and the length of bones is fixed for life. Consequently, total height and the length of arms, legs, hands, and feet are not affected by HRT. However, details of bone shape change throughout life, bones becoming heavier and more deeply sculptured under the influence of testosterone. Many of these differences are described in the Desmond Morris book Manwatching.


 * Pelvis: The pelvis in females tends to be wider than in males and tilted forward; the pelvis in males tends to be more circular and tilted upwards.
 * Hands: Male hands and feet tend to be larger than female hands and feet in persons of equal height.
 * Upper Arm: The upper arm in females tends to be significantly longer (about 1") than in males of the same height.
 * Head: Females tend to have smaller heads than males of the same height.
 * Chest: Female rib cages tend to be narrower than those of males in the same height.

Removal reason
I removed this section for being internally inconsistent and having no citations. Manwatching is not published in a journal, seems to have little relation to the topic of masculinizing hormone therapy (MHT), and the subsequent bullet points don't talk about the effects of MHT on the body parts, nor if the subjects described underwent MHT. The preceding paragraph states "bones becoming heavier and more deeply sculptured under the influence of testosterone" - does that cause the anatomical differences described in the bullet points, or are they precluded? Other sections of the (very bloated) article already mention epiphyseal closure as well.

With this level of uncitedness, I think it'd be better to remove content and if further citations are found, to add it back anew. Calabax (talk) 07:11, 12 June 2023 (UTC)