Talk:Maya calendar/Archives/2006/February

Maya and eclipse cycles
It's been pointed out to me that a Tzolkin is 1.5 times an eclipse season; ie.
 * 2 Tzolkin = 520 days
 * 3 eclipse seasons = 519.93 days

Coincidence? Or did the Mayans track eclipse cycles (like the ancient Babylonians)? — Johan the Ghost seance 11:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's a racing certainty that 2 × Tzolkins ≈ 3 × eclipse cycles is pure coincidence. The 260-day calendar is the oldest attested form of Mesoamerican calendar, pre-dating the Maya and any record of eclipse tables. However, the Maya were also certainly aware of the "windows" in which solar/lunar eclipses could occur, for there is ample evidence for them tracking such cycles. The tzolkin was not the mechanism by which they did this&mdash; they used calculation tables and the like for this purpose. In fact, the Dresden Codex has a far more sophisticated set of calculations than the one given above, which span 405 lunar months from a base date (equivalent to 12 Nov 755 CE) and identify "warning stations" for every one of the 77 solar eclipses in that span to within 2 days' accuracy (not all of which would have been visible from the Maya region). For lunar eclipses, 51 of 69 possible in that span are identified to within 1 day. The tables take into account precession of the nodes by interspersing the sequence of 6 lunar months with a 5 lunar month period as appropriate. Other adjustments were also made to further improve the table's accuracy.--cjllw | TALK  23:12, 26 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that, that's very interesting! I guess the real coincidence is that 3 eclipse seasons is so close to 520, when 520 has such "easy" factors.  But I'm delighted to learn about the Maya's eclipse tracking.  Cheers, — Johan the Ghost seance 12:51, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Ian Xel Lungold and 360 days Tun calendar
according to Deaths in November 2005 which states Ian Xel Lungold, 56 American researcher, speaker and creator of the Mayan Calendar and Conversion Codex. Ian Xel Lungold is at the origin of our current knowledge of the mayan calendar. and according to Ian Xel Lungold and his experience with shaman the 365 days 13 * 28 calendar he thought was the mayan calendar was in fact the dreamspell calendar. The mayan calendar (or tun calendar)is 360 days. source

''You may have heard some about the Haab calendar and its 19 month divisions of each 365 days, 18 months of 20 days and 5 days in the 19th month. This is the calendar most understood by the archeologists and so the most discussed in books and class rooms. The Haab was the solar year agricultural, bookkeeping, or civil calendar of the Maya developed most by the "post classic" Maya.

''What you have not heard much about is the calendar that was central to the "classic" Maya called the TUN calendar of 360 days. This TUN calendar (18 months of 20 days) is directly connected to the Tzolkin and they run together like two gears, each day being a tooth on the respective gears.

''Neither of these calendars is concerned at all with our earthly orbit around our particular star.

''The Maya never connected the Tzolkin and the Haab calendar together. It was the Archeologists that did that. Jose was just following what he was taught by the archeologists, he never went to the Maya to discuss any of this. Last I heard, his position was that he has made improvements on the Mayan calendar with his Dreamspell and that’s fine and dandy as his view point.

''The facts are though that the math in his system is flawed to the point that one day out of every 4 years needs be erased from creation just to keep his system going. (Day out of Time)

''The Maya never connected the lunar calendar and the Tzolkin together either and here we have the seeds of the problem. As of now most of the planet has been fed erroneous information about the Mayan calendar.

''Pursuant to meetings that I had in Guatemala, I am under solemn oath to the Mayan Elders of the Indigenous Council to do my best to straighten out all of this calendar confusion.

''The sacred Mayan calendar has nothing to do with the cycle of this planet’s orbit. ''The sacred Mayan calendar has nothing to do with the cycle timings of this solar system.

''It is time to get a much bigger view of creation than what is going on here on this little speck of creation that we call our earth home.

''The sacred Mayan calendar has nothing to do with the cycle timings of this galaxy.

''All of the Physical Universe is an Effect of Cause, all structure or alignments within creation are the effects of cause.

''The sacred Mayan calendar always was and still is, keeping track of the cycles of Cause and we can note, just as the Maya did throughout their history, the record of the effects generated by these causes seen in the stars, planets and in their own societies. The ancient Maya knew that they were tapped into the mind of God. We are just now figuring out how they did that.

''It was their calendar.

''Now we understand their sacred calendar and its purpose. It is not used to tell time.

''It is a tuning device for consciousness. The Mayan calendar was always a tool to tune your consciousness and engage your intuition. By paying attention to the flow of consciousness day by day on the Tzolkin calendar for instance, you start to become entrained to the Flow of Creation and your inner knowing responds. This is the power of the 13:20 ratio getting into gear and it is why you are intuitively guided to the Mayan calendar in the first place. The astrology associated with the calendar is icing on the cake.

''The meanings of the 260 days of the Tzolkin calendar are made up of intentions numbered 1- 13 and 20 different aspects of creation. Each of these days has its own purpose and flavor. It is understood by the Mayan Elders that what ever day something comes into being physically, it comes into being with the energy of the day that it manifested and that it carries that energy for the duration of its existence whether physical or in memory. This applies to the day that you were born or the day you got married, started a business, dedicated a road or a pyramid temple or what ever. So what ever Gregorian day happens to be agreed upon to start a year cycle the meaning of that whole cycle to those in agreement, is set by the intent and aspect of the Mayan calendar day that the cycle began.

''2004 for example started on 3 Akabal or 3 Night on the Mayan calendar. That means that this year is intended to be strong in action and communication about the aspect of the temple or the silent womb of creation, the void and the dreams which can be harvested from there.

In other words; 2004 is a year to communicate and take action on your dreams and by so doing, build the sanctity of your inner temple.'' source

another source is the book Solving the Greatest Mystery of Our Time: The Mayan Calendar by Carl Johan Calleman there's also a video of a conference by Ian Xel Lungold "secrets of the mayan calendar unveiled" about which Ian himself says: ''Showing the tapes of my talks seems to work very well. Make copies give em away or sell cheap to get this out there everywhere. I'll be doing a whole bunch of that stuff really soon myself.''

Maybe this info should be verified, cross referenced and added in the article. Izwalito 24 February 2006


 * No, none of the above merits inclusion, even as cross-reference, to the article. It's transparent hokum, and Xel Lungold or whatever he calls himself is about as obscure and non-noteworthy a 'source' as there can be. It's all too easy to conjure up incoherencies such as these; there are many hundreds of similar blatherings to be found on the web, this one merits no particular attention.--cjllw | TALK  12:36, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * seems like a quick closeminded discard with no other explanation that it is too easy to find it incoherent. If it is so easy, I'd be happy read some of the conjuring.
 * Most of the "similar blatherings to be found on the web" I know take source in the mayan calendar coming to an end on december 2012 which is exposed in the same book Ian Xel Lungold based his work upon which is "Solving the Greatest Mystery of Our Time: The Mayan Calendar" by Carl Johan Calleman . Carl Calleman himself says that it is a common misconception to believe that the mayan calendar is about "something" that will happen "in 2012".
 * BTW if you check the first external link of the article which says "Source of most of this text" it is one of these very websites and includes a link that very book and moreover this source loops back to the wikipedia article.
 * according to my readings Ian Xel Lungold and Carl Calleman worked together on the mayan calendar subject before the release of the book, and Lungold help Calleman in editing the book.
 * It should also be noted that Ian Xel Lungold changed his name from Philip Louis Wieme and has been a member of scientology for 9 years.


 * I understand a guy who has changed his name and has been a member of scientology can be looked upon as a dubious source of knowledge, but when it is the maya world studies center based in Merida, Yucatan, Mexico who talks about the Tun calendar, I think you'll agree it is worth paying attention to what they have to say.
 *  Some time afterwards the Maya started to notice the time it took the Sun to complete it's yearly cycle and the length of it was established in 28 thirteen-day periods which added up to 364 days, a length that did not adjust exactly to the cycle. We suppose that the astronomers and the mathematicians had different opinions and while the former held up that the exact measure of the cycle should be used the latter insisted in having a time period as close as possible to the real one that would make calculations simple, that is, a multiple of 20. Finally they agreed to create a 360 day year for calendric calculations they called Tun, it was divided in 18 months of 20 days, called the Uinal, each with a distinct name and numbers from 0 to 19 were also given to their component days. Then a period of five days called uayeb was added to the Tun year and this gave birth to the Haab calendar. In this calendar the uayeb were placed just before the beginning of the astronomical year. The Tzolkin and the Haab were then coordinated and this gave place to the calendar round. source
 * My guess is that having an article about mayan calendars sourced in the publishing of the maya world studies center is better than in armageddononline.org.
 * Izwalito 24 February 2006


 * Izwalito, far from being a "closeminded discard" of the writings of Lungold and Calleman, my position is actually informed by some understanding of what over a century of serious Mayanist scholarship has had to say on the subject, as well an understanding of the history of how this knowledge was derived. That the present Long Count cycle completes in December 2012 is not in dispute; however neither Lungold nor Calleman can claim credit for this. The essentials of the calendar system were worked out as long ago as 1880 by Ernst Förstermann, and the correlation between the Long Count system and our present western (Julian/Gregorian) calendar now overwhelmingly accepted was first published by Joseph Goodman in 1905, and later refined and confirmed by Martinez Hernandez and J. Eric S. Thompson. It has been understood for over 70 years, and the great strides which have been made in the decipherment of Maya hieroglyphics since the 1950s have only further confirmed the details. I'd recommend Michael Coe's Breaking the Maya Code for a very readable account on the history of Mayanist scholarship.
 * Having read through Lungold's and Calleman's writings on that mayamajix site you provide, far from providing any innovation or exposé in this area it is quite evident that they have merely taken the basics from popular credible accounts such as Coe's and only added to it a veneer of New Ageist terminology, without even a pretence to have found such references in the texts actually left behind by the Classic Maya themselves (since such references do not exist). Phrases such as "tuning device for consciousness", "Flow of Creation" and "sanctity of your inner temple" ought to alert one to the esoteric (and unsubstantiated) nature of their contributions, and the links on that site to UFO sites, Bigfoot DVDs and the like only bolster the case for scepticism.
 * They are right however to criticise Jose Arguelles' "Dreamspell" calendar as a pure fabrication (for an effective debunking of his speculations, see here), but their own interpretations are similarly flawed, where they are comprehensible&mdash; just what is "All of the Physical Universe is an Effect of Cause" supposed to mean anyway?
 * Far from Lungold being "at the origin of our current knowledge of the mayan calendar", he and like-minded enthusiasts are, I'm afraid, at its outmost periphery- can you provide a single reference supporting his ideas from any established scholar?
 * As further examples of their conjuring:
 * The Maya never connected the Tzolkin and the Haab calendar together. This statement is patently false, given the interaction of these two to form the Calendar Round, which appears in thousands of extant Maya inscriptions.
 * The Maya never connected the lunar calendar and the Tzolk'in together. So what? They are different cycles. The statement is false when considering Initial Series glyphs, where Tzolk'in and and Lunar Series glyphs are combined (with others) in statements which fix an event to a Long Count date and the corresponding position of the Calendar Round and Lunar phase.
 * The "Tun" (360-day) calendar they claim to have identified appears to be indistinguishable from the tun component (= 18 × winal "months") of the Long Count, this is hardly a discovery.
 * Assuming by "sacred mayan calendar" he refers to the completion of 18 20-day "months", the various pronouncements that it is not (directly or alone) a record of earth's, the solar system's, or the galaxy's 'cycles' is again not a revelation. However, in combination with other cycles it is quite clear that aspects of the calendar do indeed track astronomical cycles, and in particular the Long Count does indeed fix events in linear time, and furthermore the Maya recorded and thought of events occurring in linear time. This site is well worth a look for a (serious) overview on Maya calendrics.
 * As for the armageddononline link, that appears to have been there a while and it actually reproduces material from wikipedia, not the other way around, and is not in fact the source for much of the article - thanks for pointing it out, I'll remove it.
 * The 'Maya World Studies Center' is not, despite its name, some "official" repository of Mayanist scholarship (far more comprehensive and recognised sites can be found at mesoweb and famsi, which contain many publications from accredited scholars). Its contents are fairly unremarkable and high-level summaries, and actually incorrect insofar as the passage you quote ascribes the calendar creation to the Maya - the Mesoamerican calendars pre-date the Maya civilization.
 * If you think there is anything specific of actual substance in the Lungold or other sources being unfairly treated, by all means mention them explicitly here on the talk page and their merits or otherwise can be discussed. From what I have read of them, I remain completely sceptical.--cjllw | TALK  02:05, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for these precisions, more that kind of discussion i was expecting in the first place. I understand this was not a closed minded discard but it looked like one to my novice eyes, sorry if I offended you in any way.
 * Just for the record, I'm not a supporter of Lungold or Calleman, and I'm not looking forward to give credits to John or Jane Doe for a 'discovery' (to my limited knowledge neither of them claims discovery). Let's focus on the subject that matters, mayan calendar and quality of this particular wikipedia article. Maybe I wasn't clear and pasting a big chunk of text wasn't the brightest idea, but my point here is improving the article. As I consider I don't know enough about the subject to edit the article I came here to discuss first.
 * I'm lacking spare time at the moment to properly dig for information, but I'll read about it ASAP.
 * Anyways IMHO it would be valuable to the article to add sections about the other calendars (I heard there's about 20 of them), even wrong ones such as the dreamspell. A good reason for that is the difficulty to find quality information about this on the web.
 * Izwalito 7 March 2006