Talk:Merle (dog coat)

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Lyrics[edit]

About the introduction of the article: I thought the Led Zeppelin lyrics of Bron-Y-Aur Stomp refered to Robert Plant's (the vocalist) dog "Stryder" (not Jimmy Page, as stated). --83.226.121.54 (talk) 15:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Blue merle Shih-Tzu?[edit]

Can Shih-tzu have merle coats? My friend's Shih-tzu Puffy has what looks to be blue merle. --173.184.141.237 (talk) 00:09, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Though this is old I thought I would still respond. Its possible, but most likely they are not purebreds and the color was introduced. I have more commonly seen white Shih Tzu's with blue eyes or just the Shih Tzu's who have blue eyes that are unrelated to coat color, possibly due to extreme piebaldism but I'm not certain. Albinism has been seen in the asian breeds, but no one knows why, and it is not true albinism because it lacks the albino gene, it just mimics the gene. See here and here. Update 2018: Now that I'm aware that this is a thing, it's most likely the dog was actually mixed with another breed who has merle in their breed standard. ItsWolfeh (talk) 20:09, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Miscellaneous Proposed Edits[edit]

AKC American Cocker Spaniel "Parti-Color Variety--Two or more solid, well broken colors, one of which must be white; black and white, red and white (the red may range from lightest cream to darkest red), brown and white, and roans, to include any such color combination with tan points"

Red is red! From lightest cream to darkest red! Merle: Think of pouring bleach on red, the bleach causes different shades of red! Some merles show blue eyes, some only a speck of blue in the eye/eyes and some are hidden!!! Angel is a RED Roan Merle!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.5.227.71 (talk) 15:12, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, red is red -- recessive red ranges from pale ivory (think Lab) to deep mahogany (think Irish Setter). Recessive reds cannot have visible merling in their coats. Roan is often confused with merle, particularly in Cockers. I'm not saying your dog is not genetically merle, but there will be no visible merling in its coat. Anything that may look like merling can be chalked up to roaning or ticking. Recessive reds only produce phaeomelanin pigment in their coat, and eumelanin can be merled while phaeomelanin cannot.
The commonly used phrase "red merle" is actually referring to a dog who is genetically liver, also known as chocolate.
Here are some sources and quotes:
Basic Genetics
"Merle has no obvious effect on recessive red."
Merle
"An epistatic interaction of the MC1R e/e genotype prevents the merle phenotype."
Clear Red
"Dogs that are e/e are red or yellow due to phaeomelanin production, and this is the recessive genotype."
"Although the e/e genotype is the most recessive at this locus, it is epistatic or masks other genotypes at other loci, such as the K and A locus."
Canine Genetics Primer
"When a dog is homozygous for non-extension (ee), its coat will be entirely phaeomelanin based - i.e. red/yellow."
The Merle Gene
"Merle affects eumelanin. That means that any black, liver, blue or isabella in the coat will be merled, whether it's the whole of the body, a mask on a sable, shading, brindle stripes, or even a saddle. Phaeomelanin (red) is not affected at all and will appear as normal." (emphasis mine)
Roan (since they're often confused)
I've tried to support what I'm saying with reliable sources, and like I said to ItsWolfeh below, I'd be happy to see yours too. The bottom line is that recessive reds can have a copy of the allele, but its effects won't show up in the coat. -- anndelion (talk)


"Merle can also alter other colors and patterns besides the usual red or black. These combinations such as Brindle Merle or Liver Merle are not typically accepted in breed standards."

Whoever wrote this doesn't seem to understand the terminology being used -- red merle IS liver merle, or merling on a chocolate/liver base coat. Merling cannot affect phaeomelanin, the pigment that can range from pale ivory to deep mahogany. Among others, it is what gives Labs their pale cream hue, Irish Setters their dark red, Bernese Mountain Dogs their tan/rust points, and Collies their base color when they have a sable coat.

Also, the inconsistent use of the terms "blue merle" and "black merle" throughout the article is a little off-putting. Blue merle is commonly used to describe what is genetically black merle, just as red merle is used to describe what is genetically liver/chocolate merle. Slate merle is the pattern resulting from merling on a blue (diluted black) coat, and lilac merle is merling on an isabella (diluted chocolate) coat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RomeoMerleAmericanCockerSpaniel.jpg If Romeo is actually a merle, this picture does not do him justice (and should be removed from the article, in my humble opinion). He looks like a buff with ticking and white in the piebald/extreme piebald pattern. Take a look at the dog listed under "'Open' Marked Parti" on this page, and you'll see the similarities: http://www.zimfamilycockers.com/cockers.html

While the dog seems to have a blue eye, none of the visible color is merled, which makes me question the image's inclusion here.

I don't have a Wikipedia account, but I may end up making one to edit this article and some related ones. There's a lot of wording that is inaccurate or awkward throughout, and the entire thing could be reorganized.

Thanks! 173.11.33.161 (talk) 05:03, 10 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Red is also known as recessive red, which is exactly the same as buff, only at greater intensity (see: [1]). It cannot be merled. Read more about recessive red here: [2] -- anndelion (talk) 00:18, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Recessive red occurs in many breeds, not only BCs. I updated the links -- take a look. Your dog has black pigment so it cannot be a red (genetically liver) merle. -- anndelion (talk) 00:26, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Where do you see black? You can also see Terri's breeding site here: http://www.dogbarf.net/ ItsWolfeh (talk) 00:31, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The nose. When a dog is liver (merled liver produces "red merle", which is a misleading term since true red cannot show visible merling), the nose, pawpads, eyerims, and lips are also liver. Here's some more info on that, as well as recessive red and merle: [3][4][5].
"An epistatic interaction of the MC1R e/e genotype prevents the merle phenotype." -- anndelion (talk) 00:48, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Buffs and reds cannot be merle. You're missing my point -- buffs and reds do have black noses because recessive red is totally separate from liver. Your dog has black pigment, so if it was a merle AND was not recessive red, it would be blue merle. Recessive reds -- homozygous for the e allele -- cannot express the merle phenotype, period. Phaeomelanin cannot express merling.
I haven't seen Schmutz refer to roans as merles, but here are other sources saying the same thing: [6] -- "Merling can also appear on a recessive red/cream dog, but since these dogs lack visible eumelanin pigment in the coat, no merling will be visible at all on them!" [7] -- anndelion (talk) 01:16, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You're still missing what I'm trying to say -- there is no special Cocker merling gene. Where are you getting the idea that the sources I linked to are only referring to Aussies?
Cockers can certainly have liver pigment, but I can tell from the images that yours do not. Even if they did, your dogs do not have liver coats, so they would not display any merling. Bottom line is that recessive reds cannot have visibly merle coats, period. Re: piebald, roaning shows up on any white that appears on the coat, so your dogs do in fact look like piebalds or extreme piebalds to me. I've shown you plenty of sources that back up what I'm saying, and I'm open to looking at any that you provide. -- anndelion (talk) 01:50, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not refusing to acknowledge them. dogbarf.net has no information, just images, and the merle cockers page largely supports what I'm saying. It even states "Buff like white, often hides the merling. If your buff is a merle, You will register it as a buff.or red & white particolor if it is a parti.". Regardless, buff = recessive red, and recessive red is controlled by phaeomelanin, which cannot be merled.

Anyways, I'm not really here to try to change your opinion about what color your dog is, but I don't feel the image has a place on this article because of this disagreement and the evidence I've provided. If you'd like an impartial opinion, I suppose this could be listed at WP:Third opinion. -- anndelion (talk) 02:11, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think an image of a merle cocker would be good -- my only point throughout this was that it should really have visible merling, i.e. not a recessive red. Glad we could come to some sort of consensus. -- anndelion (talk) 12:59, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Coming in from WP:3O; if I understand it correctly, this is about whether to add File:RomeoMerleAmericanCockerSpaniel.jpg to the image gallery? A few other options have been mentioned, but that's the only one that I've spotted specifically. I'm a bit wary of adding it, though -- many people want to add pictures like this one, and it's just not practical to accept all of them. Perhaps the most direct and relevant question is this: what would that picture add to the article, that can't be expressed or described by other pictures which are already present? – Luna Santin (talk) 04:57, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation. I'm concerned that the gallery is getting a bit large, but you seem to have put forth a pretty compelling case for including this one. Your point about the eyes, especially. I do notice the watermark, though, which we might want to crop out (see WP:WATERMARK). – Luna Santin (talk) 20:27, 25 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I was concerned about that too. Maybe put it in "Genetic Basis"? It talks about cryptic/phantom merles. I was wondering if wikipedia had a rule like that since everything is supposed to be free, but its no problem, I went ahead and did that since I own the photo. I have the original image too but I don't want to go through the hassle of finding the flash drive its on, lol, besides the only benefit would be seeing if I could crop it differently to add more to the image and then not have the copyright, but I don't think there is much more to the image.ItsWolfeh (talk) 00:36, 27 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to "Merle (dog coat)". Kotniski (talk) 08:07, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Merle (coat colour in dogs) → Merle (dog coat pattern) — Merle is a pattern, not a color. It dilutes random patches of eumelanin in a dog's coat, and since that eumelanin is one of several colors, referring to merle as a color itself doesn't make much sense. I'd personally consider "blue merle" a color, for example, but not merle on its own; it's a modifier or pattern when being discussed in a general fashion. Also, "dog coat [color/pattern]" is more straightforward than "coat [color/pattern] in dogs". — anndelion (talk) 16:44, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Clarification -- dictionary definitions of merle support it being called a "color", and it can be used that way, like I said above. However, in the context of this article, I'd still argue that "pattern" would be more appropriate. — anndelion (talk) 20:18, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

etymology[edit]

Where does the word come from? —Tamfang (talk) 19:57, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

According to Merriam Webster, the origin is unknown, but it was first used in 1911. Collins English Dictionary says that it comes from mirlet or mirly, meaning speckled. — anndelion (talk) 20:16, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Cleanup[edit]

There were many redundant statements made that I have removed. There was also an incorrect comparison with merle and dilute, while I can see the confusion and thinking they are similar, they are quite different, in fact a merle can also be a dilute, but merle itself is not similar to a dilute. Blue is often used to refer to a dog who is the color black and also merle, but it is not the same as a blue dilute. This is even addressed in "Description". A dilute merle is still typically called "blue" or "red" registration wise, and it is up to the owner whether or not they want to label them correctly as being dilute blue merle or dilute lilac merle. Merle is a pattern, not a color, the color prefaces the pattern, "blue" merle, the color is "blue"/black, the pattern is merle. Red is genetically different to merle- all colors are different from merle because of it being a pattern and not a color, this may have been a typo meaning red is different from chocolate and this is what my edit reflects. Pea scheme image was lacking neutrality so the description was edited (see: Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view), I also made it the forefront of the genetics portion. Moved second Australian Shepherd homozygous eyes to health issues, fits quite nicely with the other picture. I also added a bit more information on cryptic merles, including a new identifier "atypical merle" or "Ma", whose polytail A is longer than cryptic merle "Mc" but shorter than true merle "M". I have heard of some very interesting things going on with the merle gene in the Australian Shepherd breed, but most of it has no reputable sources and is anecdotal. Removed Boston Terrier merle comment and replaced it with a neutral blanket statement that it is being introduced to many purebred dog breeds. Someone may want to make a separate list later of breeds where it has been introduced but it is not recognized. I could not verify the statement about some breeders thinking merle Pomeranians and Chihuahuas are mixed breeds, I have seen similar sentiments personally myself but do not have a verifiable source to back this up, so it has been removed. The blanket statement mentioned above may still suffice for that though. Removed breed specific references and tried to make a blanket statement for them. If we go through how each and every breed treats merle differently (American Cocker, Pomeranian, Chihuahua, etc), it's going to be a massive cluttered article... Best to link references to the blanket statement I added ("may or may not be recognized depending on breed, may have more requirements in standard"), and/or add the article as an external link at the bottom, for those to do further reading.

Thanks for reading and improving this page! --ItsWolfeh (talk) 10:27, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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