Talk:Miami people/Archive 1

Places named for the Miami
I just wanted feedback from some of the other editors of this page regarding this particular section. Some of these places listed are named after something that was originally named for the Miami, so not directly. Example: Miami University is named for the Miami Valley, which is named after the Miami. So should list items like Miami University be included? Secondly, should this list even be put on the page at all? Does it add to the page in a good way? - Extermino (talk) 20:42, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Untitled
There are still quite a few Miami in Indiana, not all of them descendants of Richardville. Just because they ceased to be federally recognized in the late 19th century doesn't mean they all disappeared. --Jpbrenna 03:03, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Tribal relations
The relationship between the Miami, Wea, and Piankeshaw continues to confuse me, at times. Some sources seem to indicate they had a common association and were essentially one people divided by distance. Other sources read more like they had nothing in common.

I'm also trying to figure out if the Kickapoo were somehow related. They had an Algonquian language and had a village on the Wabash between the Wea at Ouiatenon and the Piankeshaw at Vincennes. But I haven't read anything that says they were as close tied to the other nations. Mingusboodle (talk) 17:09, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The Miami, Wea, Piankashaw, and Peoria all spoke the same language. They were culturally very similar. The Kickapoo were more like cousins in that they spoke a different Algonquian language which was similar to the language of the Miamis, but not mutually intelligible. However, they often had close cultural ties or alliances with the Miamis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.245.42.213 (talk) 04:03, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

By kalainia Waquie

Removed Content
I removed the following from the article. Some of it may have value, but it needs some style work, and appears to be in part original research. Charles Edward 17:13, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

They lost status because thier history was wrong because they used rafert and anson

I would also like to include the research information so you or anyone might find this information. If I cannot validate it, I won't say it.

You are correct that it was the Politicians of the day who manipulated and really controlled the hour. The smaller and sometimes less known leaders of groups forced into other groups out of Governmentalconvenience played right into these agendas. Too often the tribal member had little say in the fate that leaders and the governing politicianslaid out for them. For example: The Forks of the Wabash.

Other issues steamed from the transfer and purchases of land originally issued by treaty to Charley and Charley's family.( Eel River Leaders mistakenly forced into The Larger Miami Tribe along with the Wea 1805, separated in 1809,1811,1814, 1826-28 etc.) Tipton, Hamalton and others...had Personally taken L'Charley to Ft Wayne to deed sections of the reserve area to Richardville. He had originally asked for Richardville to be removed from the reserve claiming he was an unwanted non-paying tenant. [Tipton Parpers] The area of the Forks of the Wabash ( now historical sites of Richarvilles home and Trading Post) was one of these transfers. Later, Hamilton, Tipton, Taybor and other Investors instructed by these men would purchase the majority of all land. It was illegal to transfer or purchase land without the Presidents signature so claiming that the Eel Rivers were still to be considered part of the Miami, would make it appear that it was one Chieftransferring land to another. In fact, They forced Charley's hand and his family by paying the annual annuity to the wrong people. Credit was issued to nearly all of those receiving annual annuities until the payments were made. Then and Only then were those with extended credit able to pay their debts.Charley had requested son areas to be fenced off. This was done and other services totaling $600. In 1838 the payment was made to 13 Miami's Claiming to be Eel Rivers and Charley and his group of Eel Rivers did not receive this money so they could not repay the debt. The suggestion to "deed some property " to the Principal Chief of the Miami was made and his hand was forced as he had no way to pay this debt without the annuities. Charley was issued the Forks of The Wabash and because of the error or intentional error in that years payment...It is now forever known as a historical place of another, one who the original owner by Treaty had asked to be removed.How could this happen? Hamilton, the Indian Agent at the time was also the personal Financial Advisor to the Miami Principal Chief. When Charley requested help through the channels set up by the Government, Hamilton advised him to do this transfer, knowing full well that he would benefit from this. Conflict ofInterest? I should say so. Even more it forever masked a small but historical group of people lending to the misreports that they were or are part of the Miami. In fact many of these leaders never considered themselves part of the larger group and in time would stop attending annual payments made to the Larger Group because they were Eel Rivers. April 13th 1824 Charlow/ L'Charley; requests Tipton (agent then) to contract someone to fence off & plow the Miami Lands at the Forks of the Wabash. Chief Charlow to Tipton .....; Tipton Papers I: 354-355]

[Oct.19th 1835 Hamalton writes Tipton that he may have to make some advances to Charley. Charley had promised to come in and make out papers deeding over some land to J.B.Richardville. Tipton Papers, III 177fn.

[Nov. 17th 1937 Allen Hamilton purchases with Chief Richardville, 5 sections from Little Charley, known as the Charley reserve; Tipton, Cyrus Tabor & Allen Hamilton; Articles of Agreement, Nov. 17th 1837 Tipton Papers III: 462-464 Tipton purchased from Richardville one section "opposite the mouth of Eel river..." and sold Cyrus Taber & Allen Hamilton each a third of this section. Articles of Agreement, Nov. 17, 1837. Tipton Papers, III: 462-464

[Jan. 4th 1838 Hamalton writes Tipton requesting Charley's Patent & informing Tipton that he had payed Charley $600 to pay the latter's debts. Tipton Papers III: 489

[March, 19th 1838 ; Hamalton writes Tipton that he received a patent in which he was not interested & presumed Tipton meant to send Charley's or Megeneca's. Tipton Papers, III; 573]

[March 20th, 1838 Tabor writes Tipton that he is going to Ft. Wayne tomorrow & will take Charley with him & get another deed from him. Logansport, Tipton Papers III, 575]

Much of the Land controlled by Indian Reserves was not surveyed for many years after Indiana was formed.

(Special File 112, Record Group 75, National Archives.) (Clayton, P. ?) Letter to Brown, May 4, 1850. Treasury Department 2' Auditor's Office May 4th 1850- Orlando Brown Esqr Commissr Indn Affairs

Sir, In reply to your inquiry respecting the payment of the permanent annuity of $1100, for the Eel River Indians, under treaties of 1795-1805 & 1809,- I have respectfully to State that from the year 1817- beyond which the files of this office do not extend- to about the year 1838, this annuity was paid to the Eel river band of Miamies, separately & distinctly from the Miami nation. And that from about that period (1838) it was paid to the Miamies without distinction,- sometimes in payments per capita, but generally to the chiefs The payment for 1838 was made to J. B. Richardville- the principal chief of the Miami nation- & 13 other chiefs, some of whom it is well known were not Eel river Indians, although the caption of the receipt runs thus: "We the chiefs of the (Eel River) Band of Miamies acknowledge" &c. And for 1839 payment was made to the same, while the caption runs thus: ['We the chiefs, warriors, & head men??" &c.

Best Statement comes from Little Turtle own recorded words: [[National Archives, RG 107. Old Army , H-325(2) . Signed J [ John Johnston Enc.With letter of William Henry Harrison to Henry Dearborn,Vincennes, July 10, 1805 (continued).] Minute of a Council meeting held with the Delaware, Eel River, Miami July 1805. ; Little Turtle states:..........."I am No Miami I am only their interpreter"

Politically Little Turtle was tied to the Miami but he was an Eel River Leader [Miami Nation of Indians of Indiana Rejection letter for Application for Federal Recognition : Response from;The Bearu of Acknowledgement, US Department of the Interior, Public Record]

[Stewart Refert;"The Miami Indian's of Indiana; Indiana Historical Society 1996, pp124]

" As it happened, Judge Cole's son Alphonso Cole was the Attorney for the Eel River Miami. Learning from George W.Ewing that the group was owed several thousand dollars in back annuities, Cole was soon working with the wily Ewing to Obtain the funds for himself. James T. Miller and James Aviline, As Ewing walked Cole through the minefields of Washington, he cautioned secrecy and proper timing and emphasized "don't fool your self with Indians, They are the Goddamdest ingrates in the world" By 1851 Ewing was able to assure Cole from Washington that the entire Eel River annuity -$16,000.00- was being sent to Indiana. "So set your traps & make all safe at pay[men]t. Ewing could speak with assurance because the paymaster in Ft. Wayne was his brother-in-law Smallwood Noel."

See historical documentation.

RElATED HOLDINGS: AA Cole papers (M586.OM263 Accession number:82.1007; Historical Sketch: states the following:

"In the 1820's, Hamilton, in partnership with Cyrus Tabor, established the firm Hamilton & Tabor with the intent of capitalizing on Indian Trade. The firm was prosperous and through such trade Hamilton won the trust and confidence of many Indians in the region, particularly Chief Richardville. In 1834 and 1838, he was appointed to the United States Commission to Negotiate Treaties with Miami Indians in North America, and in 1840, he served on the Commision to Extinguish Indian Tiltes in Indiana. Hamilton was also the United States Indian Agent to the Miami Indians from 1841-1845."

He was also the land officer appointed under Vance in Ft, Wayne, and Richardville's financial advisor. (see Ft Wayne article under Chief Richardville) [Recalling history: Ft Wayne Newspaper dated Feb. 20,1915]

[ Special File 112. Rec. Grp. 75 National Archives: Cole, Alphonso A. Letter to Grown, Feb. 18th 1850 (plus enclosures) page 12:]

"This affient further says the for the last ten or twelve years the old women of the said Eel River Tribe have complained to him about being cheated out of their annuities and that (to use their own expression) "Old Ricardville" ( Chief of the Miamies) "had stolen it from them"

Special File 112. Record Group 75 National Archives; Sinclear, Joseph ,letter to Medill July 24, 1848 :states; ]

"......until 1838 or 1839, when all, or nearly all the men of the Eel Rivers having died or been assassinated, the Chiefs by an unreasonable exercise of the priviledge which they enloyed under the old regulations concerning payments, excluded the Eel Rivers from a participation in any part of their National Annuities & c."

"James Lindsay, a clerk with the Office of Indian Affairs, was authorized to compile a tribal roll acceptable to the Miami council. When completed the roll contained 302 names. When some duplications and deceased heads of family are eliminated, the Miami population was 278, This did NOT include the approximately 20 Eel River (Miami) living among the tribe. Tiny though the Eel River group was, it retained separate leagal status from the Miami."[Refert pp128-129]

An Anthropological Report of the Miamis Wea and Eel River Indians Vol. 1. Chapter 4, pp 171-179: Drs. Ermine Wheeler- Voegelin, Emily J. Blasingham, Dorthy R. Libby}

The relatively small size of the Eel River Tribe (group), plus the fact that this group lived on the Wabash between two larger groups. The Miamis, and the Wea and resembled these two groups in language and culture probably accounts for three observers having identified the Eel River mistakenly as "Miami". (Croghan and Hamilton) and as "Weschtenoos [Wea]" (Heckwelder). That the Eel Rivers were, however; a group apart from either the Miami or Wea is indicated.......

1) by frequent references to the Eel Rivers as a separate entity on the part of various th century observers (DePeyster, Hamtramck, Gamelin, Wilkinson, Putnum, Pasteur, Wayne) and

2) by acts and statements, and by admissions of the Eel Rivers and Miamis respectively, during the first half of the nineteenth century. These acts, admissions, etc., were as follows: a) In 1828 the Eel Rivers, alone ceded their reservation on Surgar Creek to the United States, despite the agreement they, the Miamis and Weas had entered into at the treaty of Grousland of August 21, 1805, whereby all three groups were to be considered and treated with as one "nation."

b)In 1847 the Eel Rivers faced with removal to the West as "Miamis," declared they were NOT Miamis, and thus not obligated to remove West. There protest was upheld in a court action and they were not removed to the West.

This was the Children and Family for Francis Slocum. They requested themselves NOT to be considered part of the Miami... so why are they still called Miami today?


 * The concerns about the Eel River band are already mentioned in Miami_tribe. There is a lot of confusion because the name "Miami" is, today, used to refer to the specific Miami band of Kekionga, but also to a wide range of closely related bands.  That's why even the Piankeshaw are considered "a Miami tribe."  You're right that we could use more information in the article.  Please comply with Wikipedia standards, though. Mingusboodle (talk) 16:39, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Timeline / Locations
Although the data showing the locations of the Miami through the years is good information to have, I've never been happy with the way the information is presented. I can't help but wonder if that data should be an entirely separate "list" article. Short of that, I've created an infobox for the first set of data, showing their locations during the Iroquois Wars. Is this an improvement? I'm willing to help clean this up, but I'd like some feedback as to which approach we should take. Mingusboodle (talk) 22:07, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Note to new editors
Over the course of time, I've noticed multiple occasions of people editing this article for what looks to be the first wikipedia edits they've done. If you're one of those people: first, welcome to Wikipedia. Second, welcome to the discussion page; if you've made it this far, you're already making progress. Third, I would suggest browsing some Wikipedia help pages before making your first edits. Start with [], maybe. Pay special attention to the part about citing references, and take note that these are supposed to be encyclopedia articles, not discussion boards where you can point fingers and make accusations.

I say all this because I think there are people out there who could make valuable contributions to this article if their edits weren't tainted with all the "This is full of lies" stuff. Please keep in mind that, about a year ago, there wasn't much to this article at all, and a lot of people have worked hard to research and expand what's here. No doubt this article will change and improve over time, but your contributions have to be done the right way, or the next reader after you will just delete all your changes because it looks too unprofessional. If you have questions about why your contributions to this article keep getting removed, ask here, and someone will help you. Mingusboodle (talk) 22:21, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

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