Talk:Michigan goal

Feedback from New Page Review process[edit]

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Thanks for creating the article!.

✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 08:15, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Article name change[edit]

The name of the article should be changed from "Michigan goal" to "High wrap goal" to use a more geographically neutral term. The current name can be argued to be americentrist. Ekarlsson (talk) 00:59, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:COMMONNAME dictates that the most common name should be used. Of Michigan, high wrap, and Zorro, Michigan seems to be the most common in the US from my research, Zorro moreso in Europe (albeit in mostly non-anglophone countries), and high wrap least common except as an early name for the goal. The two largest anglophone countries with a major interest in ice hockey, the US and Canada, tend to favor either Michigan goal or lacrosse-style goal. The former is US-centric, and the latter is potentially confusing as an article title (lacrosse-style ice hockey goal?) so I would favor keeping the current name. Open to hearing other editors' opinions. White 720 (talk) 05:22, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For context, Google News searches for "high wrap goal" yield 3 results, "zorro goal" 10 results, and "michigan goal" 28,900 results. I'll accept that as a US-based user, Google News might serve me more US-based and US-oriented sources; if another anglophone country-based user gets different results, please share. White 720 (talk) 02:59, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You didn't include the Lacrosse Goal as an option in that evaluation. It seems to be the most widely used and is significantly more descriptive than "Michigan Goal". From a clarity perspective, the High Wrap is easily the best, but Lacrosse Goal is the most used, is more descriptive than Michigan, and is easy to understand. 24.96.128.235 (talk) 07:53, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My thoughts on popular names for this goal, with respect to WP:CRITERIA for article titles:

Michigan goal — Pro: concise, natural (in US media); Con: not recognizable worldwide (US-centric), not precise (can be confused with other goals associated with the state or university of Michigan)
Lacrosse goal — Pro: natural (in US/Canadian media); Con: not recognizable worldwide (US-/Canada-centric), not precise (ambiguous with the sport of lacrosse), not concise (may require disambiguation, such as "Lacrosse goal (ice hockey)")
High wrap goal — Pro: precise (unambiguous), recognizable (descriptive); Con: not natural (few media sources use it to describe contemporary goals)
Zorro goal — Pro: concise, natural (in European media), precise; Con: not recognizable worldwide, not natural (not used in most US or Canadian reporting)

White 720 (talk) 12:28, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As an American growing up playing hockey, I always heard it called the "lacrosse goal" or "lacrosse move." "The Michigan" is new to me in the last few years. I have never heard of it as the "high wrap" or the "zorro goal." I think any title is appropriate except for "Zorro goal," as Europe is not the main target audience. I also think "Michigan goal" is unnatural, and just "Michigan" is more common. Obviously whichever is chosen, the others ought to redirect.

In order of preference:

Lacrosse goal (ice hockey)
Michigan (ice hockey)
High wrap
Michigan goal
Zorro goal

Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 21:24, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Lacrosse goal" doesn't exist; I'd be OK with moving to it without the parentheses, and with a hatnote to Goal (sports)#Lacrosse for an actual goal in lacrosse. White 720 (talk) 21:42, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I left a note on Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Article Improvement requesting assistance from interested project authors about the article title. White 720 (talk) 12:39, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the most recent cited source on the page, from last night: "Michigan" (in quotes) in the headline, "lacrosse-style" in the subhead, both "Michigan" and "lacrosse-style" used in the body, and "lacrosse" used in the video. White 720 (talk) 13:02, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd certainly dispute that "Michigan goal" isn't used in Canadian sources; Sportsnet.ca uses the term, as does The Hockey News. That it's putatively US-centric doesn't have a bearing on the applicability of COMMONNAME, which lacks any test as to how many sources come from which countries. I would certainly also prefer "Michigan goal" to just-plain Michigan, as being a good bit more descriptive of the subject. Ravenswing 11:47, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Michigan" is the move, a "Michigan goal" would be a goal scored with the move. In a lot of the media on the other day's two Michigans in one day, including every article from NHL.com, they report it as a "'Michigan' goal," with 'Michigan' in single quotes and goal outside of quotes. For that reason, I'd prefer the article to be titled "Michigan (ice hockey)" instead of "Michigan goal" Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 17:18, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Having the title of the article be “Michigan (ice hockey)” could easily lead to it being confused with (or at the very least need disambiguation from) numerous other articles. The University of Michigan Wolverines men’s ice hockey team, Michigan State Spartans men’s ice hockey, etc., List of ice hockey teams in Michigan, et al. I think that “Michigan goal (ice hockey)” is the best option for title, but I’m personally not dying on that hill, and I could possibly be sold on “Lacrosse” or “Zorro.” Evbeverage (talk) 04:41, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What about "Michigan (ice hockey move)" or something similar? My problem with "Michigan goal" is that it's still a Michigan if it doesn't go in. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 16:08, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I get what you’re saying in that it doesn’t always go in, but people really don’t talk much about the Michigan attempts that don’t go in. That being said, I would be alright with not having the title include “goal.” I think that if that is the direction we’re going then “Michigan (ice hockey play)” or “Michigan (ice hockey move)” would be the best options (unless someone else has a better word for it). I like the idea of having “play” in the title because at the end of the day it is a type of play just like taking snap shot is a type of play. My only concern there is that we then could be confusing it with specifically the “Michigan Pass” (I prefer the term “Dish-igan”), which was what Trevor Zegras did in 2021 when he scooped the puck behind the net as if starting a traditional Michigan move, but instead tossed it over the net to Sonny Milano. I feel like these are both variations of the same move, but if we are strictly talking about the move where the puck is pulled around the side of the goal, not over, then the Dish-igan shouldn’t be part of this article. Evbeverage (talk) 21:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]