Talk:Microbial symbiosis and immunity

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Immcarle37.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 00:59, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Carleton College assignment in immunology (Winter 2017)
Hello,

I will be adding information from the following articles to this Wikipedia page:

The immune system and the gut microbiota: friends or foes? Nature Reviews Immunology 2010;10:735-744

Commensal bacteria at the interface of host metabolism and the immune system. Nature Immunology. 2013; 14:676-68

Metabolites: messengers between the microbiota and the immune system. Genes & Dev. 2016;30:1589-1597

The cross talk between microbiota and the immune system: metabolites take center stage. Current Opinion in Immunology. 2004;30:54–62.

Triggering the adaptive immune system with commensal gut bacteria protects against insulin resistance and dysglycemia. Molecular Metabolism. 2016;5:392-403

Immcarle37 (talk) 19:18, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Page title
I suggest to rename the page as "microbial symbiosis".

First, the lede is written suggesting this as the title. Immunity isnt even woven in in a single sentence (preferably beginning of the lede per WP:MOS.

Second, immunity is an interesting, but only a single particular aspect of microbial symbiosis. It is also nowhere clearly defined (human, mammalian, other ?) as it should be, being part of the title.

Microbial symbiosis isnt a page yet, so Microbial symbiosis and immunity should be a section.--Wuerzele (talk) 07:48, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Support -  Bfpage   let's talk... 11:54, 20 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your feedback! I added a definition of immunity in the lede section. Please let me know if there is a better way to weave this into the lede section. Second, I agree that immunity is only a single particular aspect of microbial symbiosis and that microbial symbiosis and immunity should be a section on a Microbial symbiosis page. I am currently focusing my research on microbial symbiosis and immunity. Therefore, I want to improve this page as much as possible before creating a new page on microbial symbiosis with immunity as a subsection! Thank you very much for your feedback! Immcarle37 (talk) 17:30, 25 February 2017 (UTC)


 * I understand where you are coming from (an immune system centered perspective). However, I do not think that you understood the issues I raised. The article title is Microbial symbiosis and immunity, ie starts with the term  "microbial symbiosis" and mentions "immunity" second and not vice versa. The article cannot be taken seriously without immunity even occurring in a single sentence at the beginning of the lede (read WP:MOS). You added the term immune system, but that is not the same as immunity. Also, the article is becoming tunnelfocused on human immunity, which is a pity (anthropocentric). I saw on your college  course list that you have other articles you work on, so you arent losing this one, if it was to be renamed. It´s important to service the existing article, otherwise you are not really improving the page, but creating your own. No i dont have a better way to weave this into the lede section. I am for renaming the thing.
 * Also If you want to draw attention that you replied, it´s best to address the person like that, Immcarle37 (also called pinging). --Wuerzele (talk) 23:16, 27 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Hello Wuerzele, I interpreted the title as the symbiotic relationships between microbes and the cells of the immune system, and how these relationships contribute to host immunity. In other words, I interpreted the title as the interactions between microbes and the immune system/immunity, rather than a sequential "microbial symbiosis" first and "immunity" second. I found it challenging to discuss immunity early in the lead section before explaining microbial symbiosis and why microbes would be interacting with the immune system in the first place. Perhaps I could rephrase it again, but Chiswick Chap suggested I avoid editing the lead section. Regardless of the phrasing of the lead section, I am ok with renaming the page.


 * This is probably a naive question, but I don't think I understand the difference between the immune system and immunity as it relates to this article. Would you be willing to clarify what you mean when you say the immune system is not the same as immunity, and how that would affect the content of this article?


 * I apologize for my bias and focusing the article on human immunity. If there are certain topics which you think could be added to this page to make it balanced, I will be happy to read about them and incorporate them into the article. Thank you very much for your feedback!  Immcarle37 (talk) 02:20, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Immcarle37 please read immunity, first, which ive cleaned up a LITTLE bit, then i can answer specific questions.--Wuerzele (talk) 14:33, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

First sentence
Can a symbiotic relationship be parasitic?
 *  Bfpage  let's talk... 11:54, 20 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the comment! No, a symbiotic relationship cannot be parasitic. I tried to clarify this in the lead section. Immcarle37 (talk) 17:14, 25 February 2017 (UTC)


 * It can, though: see Symbiosis, which says, cited, "any type of persistent biological interaction (in other words mutualistic, commensalistic, or parasitic)." Long ago, I learned that lichens were symbioses; now we learn they are mutualisms. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:27, 25 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you! Immcarle37 (talk) 17:46, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Lead is trying to do far too much, far too soon
I can see you are working hard to make the lead say ... everything. It's not possible, nor even desirable. The lead's job is to summarize what is in the rest of the article, in a short, easily digestible form for readers in a hurry (that's most of them). It should avoid technical terms as far as possible; steer clear of complicated definitions; avoid parentheses, asides, digressions, clarifications and other forms of academic pussyfooting (as a famous academic once wrote). We also don't usually put refs in the lead (except for direct quotations, or desperately controversial points). In short, keep it simple.

It's practically impossible to write a good lead section before the rest of the article is at least roughly in shape (which it ain't right now). So, let's not try too hard to tweak the lead - let's make the article simple, clear, and logical, and then we'll try to make it elegant and comprehensible as well, and then we'll see about the lead. For now, I'll take out the parentheses. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:33, 25 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Ok, thank you! Immcarle37 (talk) 17:46, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 20 November 2019

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Opinions amongst the !voters are split, and both sides make some valid arguments. All-in-all there's no consensus after two relists. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 19:58, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Microbial symbiosis and immunity → Microbial-Mediated Immunity – The original title of this article "Microbial Symbiosis and Immunity has an "and" in the title and does not follow the Wikipedia title guidelines as it is not two similar topics but instead just one. Similar topics use a similar naming convention, such as "Cell-mediated immunity". Phillipebrown (talk) 13:58, 20 November 2019 (UTC) —Relisting. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 13:59, 28 November 2019 (UTC) —Relisting. Dekimasu よ! 09:01, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment – We do have a few articles that join topics like that ("Sex and the law"), but the current title does feel a bit vague. Wouldn't it be Microbe-mediated immunity though? – Thjarkur (talk) 20:08, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment – My worry is that the article is not about microbial symbiosis 'and' immunity, it is about immunity as it pertains to microbial symbiosis. I want to keep the title as original as possible as 'Microbial symbiosis' is a commonly used term in the field but it needs to be refined to fit the actual topic of the article. – Phillipebrown (talk) 17:01, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
 * support per Phillipebrown--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 10:42, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
 * oppose as described. The article is about commensal microbes that may have symbiotic characteristics, including the induction of beneficial (to the host) immune responses (e.g. B cells) to pathogenic microbes. Using that specific (prominent) example, it's clear that this phenomenon includes responses stimulated but not mediated by the microbe. Vaccines, by analogy, do not mediate protective immune responses, they stimulate the host to develop them. Thus, the current title is more accurate - this phenomenon is a correlation of certain microbes with certain beneficial responses - which may be mediated directly by the microbe (e.g. interfering metabolic products) or indirectly (by stimulating inflammatory or adaptive immune responses mediated by host cells). &mdash; soupvector (talk) 01:32, 30 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Note, proposer moved this page himself and reverted him. The discussion template was however removed so this discussion was never closed. I am neutral but will again note that it should be "microbe-mediated" rather than "microbial-mediated". – Thjarkur (talk) 17:21, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Oops. Sorry I screwed up the un-close. Thanks . Ian (Wiki Ed) (talk) 18:58, 3 January 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.