Talk:Mikhail Shuisky

Article issues
I moved this article from Articles for creation as the subject is clearly notable per the references from The Great Soviet Encyclopedia, and permculture.ru, which appears to be an official website from the City of Perm. However, while I've done some basic clean up and trimming, this article still needs extensive copyediting and careful reference checking and may need further trimming. It appears to have been written by a descendant of the subject. Much of the material, especially re his family, etc. appears to be sourced to family archives which have not been published (and are therefore unusable here per WP:NOR), and some from off-line official archives (and therefore difficult to verify). This is the version of the article before I transferred in to article space. Voceditenore (talk) 12:19, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Google translations

 * Biography on permculture.ru
 * Biography on slovari.yandex.ru
 * Biography on The Great Soviet Encyclopedia

– Voceditenore (talk) 11:59, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Translation, transliteration, and titling issues
I'm copying the discussion below from my talk page so that other editors can participate more easily in this discussion. Voceditenore (talk) 08:35, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Beginning of copied discussion

Hello, Voceditenore, many thanks. You were very kind move my draft into article space after doing some basic copy editing and cleanup. I'm only wondering: 1. For what reason spelling from Shuisky Michael was changed into Mikhail Shuisky? May I change it back? 2. For what reason names of all composers was disappeared from Opera roles? Could I write down them back? 3. Could be files into Opera roles smaller? If yes, how can I do it? Thank you so much for your help.121.98.217.63 (talk) 22:12, 25 September 2013 (UTC)121.98.217.63 (talk) 22:09, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hello, I'm assuming you are the article's creator, but you have not logged in. Anyhow,


 * 1) I used the standard English transliteration of his name, but I'm happy to move the article for the time being. Do you have any examples of him or one of his descendants being mentioned in non Russian sources? That might help, but note that European languages vary in how they transliterate Russian. For example, English: Tchaikovsky; Italian: Čajkovskij, German: Tschaikowski, French: Tchaïkovski. I note also that in your draft, you referred to his wife at least once as as Yanina Shuysky not Shuisky: "with his wife Yanina Shuysky performing as Aida". Also note that for first names, we use transliteration not translation. Thus "Mikhail" not "Michael", e.g. Mikhail Bakunin, Mikhail Glinka, Mikhail Gorbachev, etc.. Please do not attempt to substitute "Michael".
 * 2) As for the role list, when the operas have their own article and are linked, the composer is superfluous, and you certainly don't need to keep repeating "opera by". See Simon Keenlyside and Jean-Étienne-Auguste Massol for examples of properly done role lists. So please don't add the composer back.
 * 3) I can make the images slightly smaller, if you wish, but they should never "sandwich" the text as they were here.
 * Here is a guide which will help to learn the formatting and style we use on English Wikipedia: Simplified Manual of Style. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 05:42, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

.

Hello, I'd like to show you this press clipping from the newspaper "New Viennese scene".

This article was written by Deutfch 23 September 1912:

“Neue Wiener Buehne” Wohltaetigkeitsvorstellung bekannten Habeck Schueler. "Herr Michael Schuisky vom Linzer Stadttheater bot als Rigoletto ganz Hervorragendes ebenso in Aida, wo er den Amonasro gab, waerend Frau Fuuina Schuisky als Aida gesanglich und als Darstellerin fehr gutes Koennen zeigte."

Professional interpreter translated this citations into modern English:

The newspaper "New Viennese scene", "Sir Michael Shuisky of the Municipal Theatre in Linz as Rigoletto, and in the role of Amonasro in" Aida "as well, and his wife Yanina Shuysky performing as Aida, showed outstanding vocal performance." 23 September 1912.'"

I will be so happy to find out any trace of Habeck Schueler. This only way to discover what was Mrs Shuisky's maden surename. She was a student from 1905 to 1908. She married to Mr Shuisky in 1906 and changed her name. Would you please tell me how can I discover list of Habeck's students from 1905 to 1908 ?

Many thanksШуйская (talk)Шуйская (talk) 03:48, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Ah, that clipping helps a lot. But your translator made several mistakes. "Neue Wiener Bühne" is translated into English as "New Viennese Stage (or "Theater")" not as "Scene" in this context, and we always use the original titles for newspapers, not made-up translations. "Herr" is translated into English as "Mr." not "Sir". There was a well-known singing teacher at the Vienna Conservatory at that time whose last name was "Habeck", not his first name. "Schüler" means students. The German sentence is saying that he was a student of Habeck. We can find no trace of an Austrian singing teacher named "Habeck Schueler" or "Habeck Schüler". Also as I pointed out, each European language transliterates Russian names differently. See the different versions of Tchaikovsky above. Plus the paper spelled his wife's last name as "Schuisky", so why did your translator spell it as "Shuysky"?. You can't base the title of an English Wikipedia article on a 1911 Austrian newspaper clipping in German. When he sang in Austria, he may have used a first name translated into German for his stage name, but he was there for only 3 years. The remainder of his 40 year career was in Russia. He was a Russian opera singer, not a German or an Austrian one. Do you think an English Wikipedia article about a Russian opera singer whose entire career, apart from 3 years in Austria when he was very young, should be titled with a first name that is a German translation of his real name? Voceditenore (talk) 07:56, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

End of copied discussion
 * I don't know why -ui- is so widespread, but Й is transliterated as Y according to the rules.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:20, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "Neue Wiener Bühne" refers not to a newspaper but to a theatre, de:Neue Wiener Bühne, also known as Harmonietheater and Danzers Orpheum. In other words, the clipping above is from an unknown paper about several performances at that house. As for the translation of the isolated clip in the middle: "Wohltätigkeitsvorstellung // bekannten Habeck-Schüler": that's clearly a sentence fragment, missing at least the genitive article "des" which would then give "benefit presentation (or production) // of the well known pupil of Habeck"; it is unclear who is meant as the pupil. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:35, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Something similar has gone wrong with the phrase "Dertrag Hamburger Opera theatre in Hamburg". In the Russian Wikipedia page, we have "был подписан договор с театром в Гамбурге. Dertrag Hamburger und Altonaer Stadt — Theaters". "A contract was signed with a theatre in Hamburg. Dertrag Hamburger und Altonaer Stadt — Theaters." My guess is "Dertrag" is a garbled version of "Vertrag", the German for agreement/contract.--Folantin (talk) 12:48, 28 September 2013 (UTC)


 * This original documents I think may help.



Many thanks. Шуйская (talk)Шуйская (talk) 01:46, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I see what's gone wrong there. It was "Vertrag", but printed in Fraktur (Gothic) script, which makes it look like "Dertrag". The theatre is the Hamburger und Altonaer Stadt-Theater. --Folantin (talk) 08:40, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I'll note that Boris Godunov repeatedly refers to him as Shuysky. й is a consonant, so it also makes more sense for a consonant (y) to take it's place.  The pronunciation is practically identical though. Ryan Vesey 05:12, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * й isn't a consonant, but it looks like the Shuysky transliteration is more common. --Folantin (talk) 08:40, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes it is, Russian has two groups of vowels, hard and soft, а,э,у,о,ы and я,е,ю,ё,и. й is a consonant, in IPA it is a Palatal approximant. Ryan Vesey 14:35, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually these latest documents simply serve to emphasise how ill-advised it is to base this article's title on 100 year old random German transliterations. Document 1 spells his surname Schujsky. Documents 2 and 3 spell it Schuysky and the newspaper clipping higher up spells it Schuisky. This not about a German singer, or even one who spent his entire career in German-speaking countries. He is a Russian singer whose entire career was in Russia (apart from 3 years in Germany when he was very young). This is the English Wikipedia. We know his exact name in Russian. The article should be titled with the standard English transliteration of his Russian name: Mikhail Shuysky. I strongly recommend moving this back to Mikhail Shuysky (baritone), the title I originally used when I moved Шуйская's AfC draft into article space. Voceditenore (talk) 16:33, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Strictly speaking, the article doesn't need a disambiguator and could be named "Mikhail Shuysky". -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:42, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is also possible. I had originally used the disambiguator because there was a Mikhail Shuysky from the House of Shuysky who was a Grand Duke of Kiev, although he has no article here yet and several members of the family listed in that article had "Mikhailovich" as their patronymic. Voceditenore (talk) 11:48, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

His wife
Would his wife not be Yanina Shuiskaya/Shuyskaya? Ryan Vesey 05:08, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

If the article should be titled with the standard English transliteration of his Russian name:Mikhail Shuysky (baritone), I think, his wife name should be Yanina Shuysky. ШуйскаяШуйская|Шуйская]] (talk)Шуйская (talk)Шуйская (talk) 22:04, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The question I have is why does her last name not have the feminine form? Ryan Vesey 22:09, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it should be given in the feminine form. --Folantin (talk) 11:55, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

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