Talk:Milka Duno

First paragraph?
The first paragraph can't be right. It says she moved to the US at 27, but began racing in Venezuela at 31. --MartinUK 23:03, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Daytona?
Should more be made of the fact the Daytona thing involved her driving virtually never, doing very badly and her 2 brillitan teammates getting that position? And the fact that's she's REALLY been embarassing in IRL? Duds 2k 21:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That wouldn't be WP:NPOV. Here at wikipedia, we focus on facts, not someone's opinion. -Drdisque 03:24, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Drdisque beat me to it. Anyway, my comments: The sentence referencing 24 Hours of Daytona should definitely be modified to note that it was a team and not an individual effort (every other driver's page I recall seeing always mentions the team and other drivers) - so I've now modified the page to reflect that. Controversy over her acclaim can certainly be included (in that same area) as long as references are provided. However, that achievement is something the media promulgates and thus she is known for. As for the current IRL season: The article already notes she is on probation, so excepting a race-by-race history, her IRL struggle is documented. Keep in mind this is an encyclopedic entry. -Sesameball 03:26, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

IRL Probation
My update about her being put on probation by the IRL was removed by another user with the reasoning "the deleted statement is not true, per Milka Duno's PR manager". Her probation was clearly stated by multiple media sources, one of which I clearly cited, so I have re-added my update. I would like to see any cited reference which states that she was not in fact put on probation. I have left the statement from user who deleted my original update - that she had intended to miss KTY - but that needs to be cited as well. --Sesameball 03:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * As I said, she was NOT put on probation AFTER the MIS race. She's been on probation pretty much since Indy.  Your citation was very careful in NOT saying that the probation was due to the MIS performance.  I've met Curt on a few occasions, and Curt would've said that it was due to MIS if that in fact was the case.  My sources are Milka herself, and her PR team.  I've published an article with their response, and now I cite it here.  Worse yet, your edit made it seem like the absence from Kentucky was due to this probation, when in fact, it was not.  Therefore, I make changes to reflect the truth as told by my sources, which are a bit better than a cite from the Indy Star.  Do you want this article to be truthful, or do you want it in accordance to your "multiple media sources" which you mis-cite?Twohlford 00:41, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * If your objection was to the timing of the probation, then why would you delete the entire reference to her probation and declare it as untrue? That was the issue as I perceived it. If you have an objection to when the act occurred as opposed to the media announcement, I have no problem with a correction. That information isn't available to me, and apparently it's available to you; in that same vein, if you have alternative sources to add to support the statement, I have no problem with that either. As for the issue of withdrawing from KTY, the probation reports and the track listing came out the same day, so I lumped them into the same update (I had them by the corresponding date initially), and again, a clarification to prevent misunderstanding is not something I have a problem with. In any case, I truly hope that any question of whether I want the article to be truthful is just a lame attempt at being facetious. --Sesameball 04:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * As long as we are in agreement, that is fine. My last comment was unfortunate -- I'm tired of a story getting legs and being "widely reported" even when it is wrong. Twohlford 04:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

2 references are broken
References 5 and 11. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.35.117.237 (talk) 23:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Ride?
Does she still have a ride? Bell was driving the 23 car this weekend. From the article:"For 2008, Duno signed with Dreyer & Reinbold Racing with another partial season schedule (announced as 11 races in 2008) also sponsored by Citgo. Upon testing alongside veteran teammate and former Indy 500 winner Buddy Rice, Duno began to show a bit of improvement. Townsend Bell was signed as the driver of the Dreyer & Reinbold #23 during the seven races Milka was not scheduled to drive it in 2008."--MartinUK (talk) 07:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. Right in your quoted section it says Duno and Bell are sharing a ride in the 2008 season. If you think there's a better way to say it, feel free. Zue Jay (talk)  21:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Pay driver!
I have nothing against female racers (Danica and Sarah are perfectly capable in the cockpit) or racers from Venezuela (Ernesto Viso and Pastor Maldonado are both GP2 Series winners), but Milka is slow, slow, slow, and to learn that she has been signed by NEWMAN/HAAS/LANIGAN is a bit disturbing! Paul Newman must be spinning in his grave! I hope it's just a matter of getting the sponsorship checks (I know Renault signed backmarker Sakon Yamamoto, but I later discovered that he will only do demonstrations, and was hired to get his sponsor on the cars), and then keeping Robert Doornbos in the car (one would think that ING and Red Bull's funding would be enough!).

IndyCar Racing is trying to make a comeback. Now that we have a long list of competent drivers (more than 25), we don't need field fillers like Marty Roth, Jon Herb, and Milka to maintain car counts. You referenced the article mentioning that she was showing a bit of improvement; why would a team think it's worth the wait to "develop her driving" when guys like Justin Wilson, Ryan Hunter-Reay, Paul Tracy, and Buddy Rice (who can be fast immediately) are all sitting on a crowded bench waiting for a ride?

Sorry; forgot to sign! 97.125.22.186 (talk) 08:48, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia follows Neutral Point of View, meaning that we do not offer commentary. Instead we offer the facts and let the reader come to their own conclusions. Also, Jon Herb has not been in the league in 2 years and Marty Roth will not be in the league in 2009. -Drdisque (talk) 13:51, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Correct. As Roth is not an ex-model, he has been barred from competing in the series again.--MartinUK (talk) 14:45, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Probation/Criticism
I believe it is abnormal and unfair to post info relating to probations and peer criticism - for any driver - including Milka Duno. Many IndyCar drivers have been placed on probation during their career - some several times - and these include Indy 500 winners and also IndyCar Series champions - but there is no mention of this on any of their wiki pages. I don’t mention their names – as I feel as it would be unfair to do so. Perhaps they have been posted there at some time - but if so, someone has removed them. I would say that for IndyCar drivers - many have received probations - but none show up on their wiki - and I don't think Milka Duno, or any other IndyCar driver, should be singled out for it. On the topic of peer criticism - drivers criticizing other drivers in media occurs extremely often - and there are literally hundreds and hundreds of examples of this - and some of the drivers that have criticized Milka Duno have also criticized many other drivers - and have also been the subject of criticism from other drivers themselves. But none of that appears on any of their wiki pages. As probations and or peer criticisms of other drivers are not mentioned on their wiki pages it is incredibly unfair - abnormal - not the "standard" as far as IndyCar driver wiki pages - and it is unfair for Milka Duno, or any other driver, to be singled out for this.Indyrolexalms (talk) 17:17, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * This is because virtually no other driver has been singled out so unanimously and so unambiguously as being so slow as to be unsafe, We don't whitewash someone's record - if part of what is remarkable about someone else's career is probations or suspensions - which would be, in virtually all other cases, for rough/reckless driving - then it should be included. Duno's reputation in IndyCar is almost entirely based around the fact she was slow to the point of being dangerous. Failure to mention that turns the article into a puff piece. Now, whether or not it should be in its own section is debatable, I'll agree, and this may be a case of where it would be better placed in the by-year sections, but it does, in fact, need to be there. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:27, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I also just noticed how old the comment was here - and that from your contributions you appear to be here solely to remove any criticism from this article. Do you have a conflict of interest involving the subject of the article? - The Bushranger One ping only 06:31, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree with you and will outline how and why I disagree below. I mean no disrespect – but I do disagree. If I offend you by stating how and why I disagree with you and in the points and questions I raise – it is not my intention – and I apologize in advance – but I need to ask the questions and I have the right to make my point. I have no choice but to direct these questions to you at this point – as they are your words, your text and your statements – so again, if I offend you by asking these direct questions – I apologize.

I will start with your latest post on Duno’s Wikipedia page, in which your text is in italics - not for emphasis - but for reference only.

1. Duno's IndyCar career was controversial;[29]

Your sentence beginning with “Duno’s IndyCar career was controversial” – in whose opinion? Yours? Who, if anybody, has the right and the authority to declare/decide this and place it on a driver’s Wikipedia page?

2. “…in a number of instances, she was criticized for running too slow and blocking other drivers.”[30]

In your reason, when addressing my edits, you put "Criticism: This is, upon consideration, just WP:ROUTINE driver griping," but the rest stands (outlined further below.)

Why then did you also add “in a number of instances, she was criticized for running too slow and blocking other drivers?” You went against your own statement above. Then the article you cite has examples of drivers griping. You yourself said that it was just routine driver griping. These are drivers “points of view.” These are drivers “griping” – so then why did you include this?

Then you also went further by creating a new section on the page with the title of “Criticism” – why did you do this if you yourself stated that Criticism: This is, upon consideration, just WP:ROUTINE driver griping?

3. In 2008 she was confronted by Danica Patrick after an incident at the Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course for being too slow during a practice session.[31]

For the above sentence - in whose opinion was she too slow at Mid-Ohio? Danica Patrick’s? In that instance wouldn’t that be Danica Patrick’s “point of view”? Was Duno fined for this instance – no. Was she suspended for this instance – no. Was she put on probation for this instance – no. It was simply Danica Patrick’s opinion. A driver’s point of view. A driver griping about another driver. Not a fact – just an opinion. An opinion does not make it a fact or true.

4. At the Grand Prix of Toronto and at Iowa Speedway in 2010 she was parked by officials due to her lack of speed,[32] and was subsequently placed on probation by IndyCar for consistently poor performance.[29]

The above are facts – I grant you that – but given that many other drivers, in many other series, have been placed on probation in their racing careers – are all these cases posted on their Wikipedia pages? No. Why – because it is not remarkable. In fact – it may be hard to find drivers that may have never been fined, suspended or put on probation at some point in their racing careers. It is much more “common” than it is “remarkable”. If it were to fall in the remarkable category – then wouldn’t that be more in the case of what a driver was put on probation for – and/or if they were placed on probation multiple times? It is a fact that many race car drivers – even some of the most skilled and notable – have been placed on probation during their careers – often several times. If we’re speaking about “remarkable” – Duno’s one probation in her entire racing career does not in any way rise to the level of “remarkable” and given the fact that a driver being placed on probation is not commonly put on their Wikipedia page, nor does it fall into the classification of “being the conventional norm” on Wikipedia to include this on the Wikipedia pages of every driver that has been placed on probation – Duno should not be singled out.

I will now address the comments you placed in the “Talk” section of the Duno page as the rationale in addressing my edit and for your creation of a new section and text. Your text is in italics below.

1. This is because virtually no other driver has been singled out so unanimously and so unambiguously as being so slow as to be unsafe,

Your “opinion” or “point of view?” Have you researched virtually every other driver that has ever raced in every other racing series to be able to declare this? “So slow as to be unsafe” – did IndyCar state this as a fact in their probation of Duno? No. Perhaps it is your opinion or point of view.

2. We don't whitewash someone's record - if part of what is remarkable about someone else's career is probations or suspensions - which would be, in virtually all other cases, for rough/reckless driving - then it should be included.

She is certainly not in any way “remarkable” for probations (plural – your use) or suspensions (plural – your use) – she was put on probation once – in her entire racing career.

There are many other drivers, in NASCAR and in IndyCar, and in other racing series - that have been suspended and/or put on probation multiple times in their racing careers. So then certainly they would be more remarkable than Duno in this regard – so she should not be singled out as being remarkable for this. Some drivers have been singled out by the series they compete in as inflicting “avoidable contact” on another car/driver. Being deemed avoidable contact suggests that the driver made a conscious and perhaps intentional decision to make contact with another driver/car during a race – and at race speeds – and/or the driver could have avoided it (as deemed by IndyCar officials) – but chose not to. I ask you, which might be considered more dangerous – or considered rough/reckless driving - consciously or intentionally making contact with another driver in a race at race speed – or “not meeting performance standards”?

Did Duno ever get fined, suspended or placed on probation for reckless driving? No.

For rough driving? No.

For making avoidable contact? No.

For hitting and injuring a pit crew member when coming into the pits? No.

For dangerous driving? No.

For being slow to the point of being dangerous? No.

Duno competed in sports car racing on several levels – including the highest prototype levels – from 2000-2007. Each and every year her license was renewed. She was never fined, placed on suspension or put on probation. In fact, she won 8 races in sportscar racing – including overall wins – twice at Homestead-Miami Speedway and once at Circuit de Mont Tremblant in Canada. With her first overall win at Homestead she became the first female race car driver in history to win a major international race in the USA.

She competed in stock cars for several years in the ARCA Series – and was never fined, placed on suspension, or put on probation. Her license was renewed each and every season without question. In her last season in ARCA she finished 7th in Driver Points – certainly not indicative of a slow driver. She earned and was awarded a NASCAR license – would NASCAR have done that if, as you claim, Duno’s career is remarkable for “probations or violations” or that “virtually no other driver has been singled out so unanimously and so unambiguously as being so slow as to be unsafe?” No.

''3. Duno's reputation in IndyCar is almost entirely based around the fact she was slow to the point of being dangerous. Failure to mention that turns the article into a puff piece.''

Almost entirely? (emphasis yours) – in whose opinion – yours? With all due respect - who are you to decide or declare that her reputation in IndyCar is almost entirely based on this? It could be said that there are many other female drivers and aspiring female drivers, and children, parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents that look on Duno as a role model – that respect and view her as “remarkable” for reaching IndyCar and competing in the series. It could be said that many mothers, fathers, aunts and uncles point her out to their young daughters and nieces as a source of inspiration. Certainly Hispanic people in the USA and worldwide are proud of her accomplishments as the first Hispanic female driver to qualify for and compete in the Indy 500 – in the history of the race.

Duno, under the rules and regulations of the Indy Car Series, qualified for 42 of the 43 races she entered. This simply, logically and certainly could not have occurred if – as you state – “her IndyCar career is almost entirely (emphasis yours) based around the fact she was slow to the point of being dangerous.” I believe that you are a racing fan, and I respect you for that, and as a fan you should be well aware that the speed a race car is able to achieve is largely a function of the race car itself. For anyone that is a fan of almost any type of racing sees, time and time again, in NASCAR, F1 and IndyCar – if the car is not fast – it is often due to the set-up and the performance of the car itself – and not the driver. Any driver that makes into any of these three elite series is certainly capable of driving their respective race cars as fast as the car is capable of going. Even the absolute best of them suffer due to the fact that their car is just not able to go as fast as the others. It is a fact of racing that simply cannot be denied. But when this happens – and it happens in virtually every race – they are not labeled as “slow”, their driving abilities are not called into question, they are not criticized for this, they are not called out on this in their Wikipedia pages. Yes – from researching Duno’s stats – her 2010 season was a very difficult and challenging one. Again, from her stats, it appears that it was also her first full season and that many of the tracks she had never raced on before in an IndyCar.

According to readily available performance stats, the team she competed with that year was seemingly the historically worst performing team in the series, I believe that they may have had, and may still have, the poorest performing record in IndyCar.

My point is this – in racing – unlike many other sports, a driver’s performance, results and stats are affected by issues and equipment that the driver cannot alone control. A driver can be the world’s best driver – but if driving a race car that is not performing well, or is not featuring the best equipment, or have the best engineering, or the best pit crew, or the best crew chief – it will definitely affect the driver’s results. But in these instances it is not the driver that is criticized – it’s the car, the engine, the set-up or the team – or all four. It is a fact that Duno was competing that year with a historically underperforming team - and her results showed that.

Duno was deemed as skilled and worthy of competing in the IndyCar Series when she was granted her IndyCar license in 2007 – a license that was renewed in 2008, and 2009 and 2010 – or she would not have been able to compete in the series. The series itself, in doing so, affirmed that she had the skills, knowledge and experience to compete in IndyCar – AND that she had repeatedly met “performance standards” – or they would not have repeatedly renewed her license. They approved her for a license in 2007 and then renewed it for the next 3 consecutive seasons.

She qualified for the Indy 500 for 3 consecutive seasons. You simply cannot qualify for the Indy 500, not once, not twice, not three times – as Duno did - if you are a “slow” driver. It is not possible.

…to the point of being dangerous. Your words. Please show me where that fact is. That’s not a fact – that’s your opinion. Your point of view. IndyCar did not state that in their wording of Duno’s probation. Nowhere does it say that.

Duno was granted a license, by IndyCar, to compete in the 2007 season. During that season, according to stats, she qualified for and competed in 7 of the scheduled 17 races. Was she fined, suspended, or put on probation in 2007? No.

And then IndyCar renewed her license for the 2008 season. Would IndyCar have done that if, as you claim, “Duno's reputation in IndyCar is almost entirely based around the fact she was slow to the point of being dangerous?” No.

In the 2008 IndyCar season, Duno qualified for and competed in 11 of the scheduled 18 races. Was she fined, suspended, or put on probation in 2008? No. And then IndyCar renewed her license again for the 2009 season. Would IndyCar have done that if, as you claim, “Duno's reputation in IndyCar is almost entirely based around the fact she was slow to the point of being dangerous”? No.

In the 2009 IndyCar season, Duno qualified for and competed in 9 of the season’s scheduled 17 races. Was she fined, suspended, or put on probation in 2009? No. And then IndyCar renewed her license once again, for the 2010 season. Would IndyCar have done that if, as you claim, “Duno's reputation in IndyCar is almost entirely based around the fact she was slow to the point of being dangerous?” No.

In the 2010 IndyCar season, IndyCar did place Duno on probation, I believe, only after 9 of the 17 races had been completed.

In IndyCar’s statement on Duno’s probation, nowhere does it state, as you do, of Duno as being so slow as to be unsafe or for being placed on probation for rough/reckless driving or that she was slow to the point of being dangerous- as you state.

Normally, a probation would include a statement along the lines that if, during probation, improvement does not occur additional penalties or actions may be taken. Duno qualified for and competed in the remaining 8 races of the season and no further actions were taken – which would seemingly show that she made the requested/required improvements.

''4. Now, whether or not it should be in its own section is debatable, I'll agree, and this may be a case of where it would be better placed in the by-year sections, but it does, in fact, need to be there. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:27, 17 December 2015 (UTC)''

Is it please possible that you can reference why, as you state …”but it does, in fact, need to be there.” Is this just your opinion or point of view? Does Wikipedia anywhere say, or have a rule - that it is a fact that it “needs to be there.” If so, can you please direct me to the Wikipedia text that states this?

Because if Wikipedia does, in fact, say that it “needs to be there” – and/or that any criticism of any driver by any other driver – “does, in fact, need to be there” (on a driver’s Wikipedia page) – or that if a driver is put on probation at any time in their career that Wikipedia says that this fact ”but it does, in fact, need to be there” (on a driver’s Wikipedia page) then that means that you, or I, or anyone else can research as many drivers as they like – and if they have ever been criticized by another driver, or ever put on probation – we can put references to this on their Wikipedia pages – and not only could we – but we should.

''5. I also just noticed how old the comment was here - and that from your contributions you appear to be here solely to remove any criticism from this article. Do you have a conflict of interest involving the subject of the article? - The Bushranger One ping only 06:31, 17 December 2015 (UTC)''

The comment I made may be old – as it stood scrutiny for some time – until you disagreed with it. I’m not as active as you on Wikipedia. I don’t have the time, desire or inclination to make hundreds, perhaps thousands of edits or posts on scores of different people’s Wikipedia pages – but I have a right to do so.

As for a conflict of interest – I am not only an avid fan of all types of motorsports - I work in the motorsports industry and have attended many hundreds of races – including many of the races/events where some of these criticisms came from – and I can tell you that just because a driver “says it’s so – don’t make it so.” As a racing fan yourself I’m sure you know this as well. Drivers criticize other drivers all the time – it’s just part of the sport. I routinely look at a lot of driver Wikipedia pages, as well as the pages for many racing series and big racing events as well. When I came across Duno’s and read the post about probation and driver criticism – I thought it wrong – believe it to be wrong – and “unconventional” – especially with regard to the fact that this type of info – while common to many other drivers – does not appear on their pages – and believe that Duno was being unfairly singled out for this. It was not the “norm” as compared to other drivers Wikipedia pages.

As to conflict of interest – you brought it up – so I have every right to address it - is it possible that you may have a conflict of interest? It is interesting that in your post that you specifically singled out and directly mentioned Danica Patrick’s criticism on Duno’s page. Please see below:

In 2008 she was confronted by Danica Patrick after an incident at the Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course for being too slow during a practice session.[31]

I noticed on your User:The Bushranger Wikipedia page, under the heading But Wait, There's More!, and the sub-heading Sports, that you are not just listed as simply a Fan of, but as a Supporter of Danica Patrick.

Your statement - Duno's reputation in IndyCar is almost entirely based around the fact she was slow to the point of being dangerous. Failure to mention that turns the article into a puff piece.

That’s your opinion, your point of view – nowhere does the series say that she was slow to the point of being dangerous. Her reputation in IndyCar is almost entirely based on this – that’s your opinion or point of view.

And if the probation or criticism is not included on the Wikipedia page – that Duno’s Wikipedia page is a puff piece? I most certainly disagree. Duno has raced in multiple series – in the USA and Europe – for many, many years – with no probations in any other series – except one – during her last of 4 IndyCar seasons – and halfway through that season I might add – with no further action from IndyCar – and for this reason, this one time sole action – if it’s not included – then her entire page, that has been read by thousands and thousands of people – who did not have a desire to add text pointing to drivers griping and her one probation - and I’m sure scrutinized by perhaps scores of Wikipedia editors – who also did not have a desire to add text pointing to drivers griping and one probation – and that if it doesn’t include what you want it to include – that it’s a puff piece? Really? Are you serious?

Her one probation – over a long racing career – does not rise to this level of inclusion – does not rise to this level of remarkability.

Criticism from other drivers does not rise to this level of inclusion and does not rise to the level or remarkability.

You and I both know that there are many drivers that have been placed on probation more often, for even more serious reasons than Duno, and that have been criticized by other drivers exponentially more than Duno. Yet this is not mentioned on their pages. And Duno should not be singled out for this.Indyrolexalms (talk) 02:44, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * First off - WP:TLDR. Secondly - you have obviously not read the sources in your determined attempt to sanitize the article - this one article - from any criticism of Duno. The facts, as verified in reliable sources, are that she was heavily criticised by both fellow drivers and the fanbase for being dangerously slow, to the point that it is a substanstial part of her reputation in the racing community, and this is supported by reliable sources. The fact that other articles are whitewashed of criticism does not mean that this one should be - it means that the others need additional information added. Wikipedia articles should be written to a neutral point of view. Not mentioning this part of Duno's career makes the article decidedly non-neutral - it pretends the issue does not exist, makes the de facto claim it does not exist, and your (extraordinarily long-winded) attempt to claim that it "does not rise to the level of remarkability" only serves to prove your bias in the issue. And I'll also note that your claims that no other driver has a section like that in their article are patently false - see Paul Tracy. (And, to address one point I did manage to tease out of that massive wall of text - the "this is just routine driver griping" comment was in regard to the explicit text removed in that edit, not the section as a whole.)


 * In short, 1. Regardless of your claims otherwise, the fact that Duno was, by multiple drivers, stated to be dangerously slow, to the point where IndyCar placed her on probation, is an established, reliably-sourced fact. 2. This fact was noted as remarkable at the time. 3. It remains, unfortunatly perhaps, the shining example of the legacy she left in IndyCar. Therefore, the information is both notable and relevant, and not including it in the article makes the article non-neutral.


 * (Finally, as for your attempt to insinuate that "you're a Danica Patrick fan and therefore biased", if I'd remembered I put that userbox on my page years ago, I would have removed it years ago, as I have come to root against her after her publicity campaign in NASCAR. I am, in fact, quite a fan of Milka and would much prefer that she got the opportunites Danica got, instead of the latter. But facts are facts, and I don't let who I root for affect my neutrality in editing - which, it is extraordinarly clear, is not the case with you.) - The Bushranger One ping only 12:11, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Bushranger. When facts are reliably sourced they should be included in the article. Other controversial drivers have discussion of their controversies. -Drdisque (talk) 00:02, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120714231120/http://arcaracing.com/drivers_detail.php?driver_id=399 to http://www.arcaracing.com/drivers_detail.php?driver_id=399

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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 08:02, 31 January 2018 (UTC)