Talk:Mitt Romney 2012 presidential campaign/Archive 1

Aquafresh?
Does anyone else think this doesn't really belong in the article? 'The logo was criticized for bearing too much resemblance to the logo for the toothpaste Aquafresh,[10] and the slogan was criticized for being the same as fellow Massachusetts politician John Kerry in his 2004 presidential campaign.[11]'

Those statements are sourced, but I don't think they're particularly relevant. It's common for blogs to make jokes about candidates and their campaigns, but that doesn't mean those jokes are worth noting (except in exceptional circumstances: see Santorum (neologism) for an unusually notable example). Robofish (talk) 16:06, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Endorsements
Do we really need a drop-down Navbox instead of a conventional list? The different parts of the Navbox show up on the Contents list, which makes the whole page confusing, the Navbox seems overly hi-tech when a list (for the purposes of this page, at least) would suffice. SE7 T alk/C ontribs 12:19, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I 100% agree--Brian Earl Haines (talk) 18:29, 11 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I've simplified the endorsements and made them more consistent with other articles. However, many of the entries are unsourced. Unsourced items may be deleted at any time.   Will Beback    talk    01:59, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree with SE7 and Brian. In 2008 there were separate articles such as List of Barack Obama presidential campaign endorsements, 2008. They were much easier to read. I don't know what these drop-down boxes are supposed to be consistent with, but I don't find them user-friendly for this particular purpose. They work for things few people want to see, such as historical material. If you really believe few people are interested in endorsements, then make a separate article. This combines the worst of both worlds. 75.60.4.248 (talk) 20:41, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Financial Times resource
October 14, 2011 Romney’s flawless campaign fails to engage voters by Richard McGregor in Washington D.C. 99.119.131.17 (talk) 00:28, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Romney Backs Ohio Vote to Curb Unions. WSJ resource
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2011/10/26/mitt-romney-hes-110-for-ohio-ballot-measure-to-curb-public-employee-unions/ October 26, 2011, 1:24 PM ET by Danny Yadron, regarding Labor unions. 97.87.29.188 (talk) 23:31, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

WSJ page A4; Romney rivals
Romney Rivals See Flip-Flop October 29, 2011 by JONATHAN WEISMAN in The Wall Street Journal; excerpt ... 97.87.29.188 (talk) 17:57, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

State legislators
In the state legislators section of the endorsements, many of the people listed are not, in fact, state legislators. What should we do about the non-state legislators listed there? --Metropolitan90 (talk) 08:01, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * At a minimum, their offices should be correctly listed. If they are not significant persons, such as those who would qualify as notable for Wikipedia purposes, then they should probably not be listed. All entries should be sourced, which is currently a problem. I will soon delete all unsourced entries.   Will Beback    talk    22:44, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The usual procedure is to flag unsourced entries with if they seem likely to be true. Who are you, making all these unilateral decisions by fiat? 75.60.4.248 (talk) 20:45, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Lack of Info
Seems that there is far too little info on his campaign. 96.251.196.21 (talk) 23:48, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * That is for media to cover. This reason here is to list hundreds nay thousands of endorsements Romney has. No reason other.70.42.157.5 (talk) 01:13, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Staffers

 * Rrmvd Ajay Bruno from infobox's listing of staffers.--Hodgson-Burnett&#39;s Secret Garden (talk) 13:40, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Iowa caucuses
Shouldn't the page mention that Mitt won the Iowa caucuses last night? Chris the Paleontologist (talk &#124; contribs) 21:18, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅: did it myself. Chris the Paleontologist  (talk &#124; contribs) 21:36, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Also completed is that now Santorum has won Iowa by 34 votes. The article could mention that delegates are 'proportioned'. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 12:54, 22 January 2012 (UTC), Ron Paul ultimatly won the Iowa Caucus why does my edit keep getting deleted?

PBS NewsHour potential resource
Huntsman: Republicans Are 'Splintered' Over Foreign Policy, Spending Cuts Newsmaker Interview air date: Jan. 5, 2012; transcript excerpt ... (Summary: Gwen Ifill spoke with Huntsman in Manchester.) See Jon Huntsman presidential campaign, 2012 99.181.130.110 (talk) 11:12, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Results of the New Hampshire Republican Primary election

 * "2012 New Hampshire Primary Results: Mitt Romney Wins! ... 91% reporting:" 11 January 2012
 * Mitt Romney 90,634 votes 39%
 * Ron Paul 52,720 votes 23%
 * Jon Huntsman 38,789 votes 17%
 * Newt Gingrich 21,686 votes 10%
 * Rick Santorum 21,490 9%
 * Rick Perry 1% ...

http://2012newhampshireprimary.com/. . . Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 05:19, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Unconfusing the "confusing" Iowa Caucuses paragraph
A tag has been added that the Iowa Caucuses paragraph is confusing. I agree. Once the final tally count is in next week, the paragraph can be rewritten and some of the negativism removed. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 21:41, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Someone removed the "Confusing" tag and the final certified voting is in. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 13:39, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Breakdown vote-count in Iowa 2012 Iowa Republican Caucus Certified vote totals (1766 of 1774 precincts certified) . Rick Santorum. . . 29,839 . Mitt Romney. . . 29,805 . Ron Paul. . . 26,036  . Newt Gingrich. . . 16,163 . Rick Perry. . .  12,557  . Michele Bachmann. . .  6,046  . Jon Huntsman. . .  739  . No Preference. . .  147  . Other. . .   86  . Herman Cain. . .   45  . Sarah Palin. . .  23  . Buddy Roemer. . .  17 Total Certified            121,503 http://IowaGOP.org/iowagop/. . .  Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 13:39, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Add Marriott connection?
Add Marriott money connection, regarding Political action committee? 99.181.131.215 (talk) 00:48, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Here is something ... Mitt Romney's biggest backer: Bain Capital by Dave Levinthal 1/13/12 6:16 PM EST Politico; excerpt ...


 * http://reporting.sunlightfoundation.com/2012/romney-patrons/
 * http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0112/71398.html
 * Group’s Ads Rip at Gingrich as Romney Stands Clear by Nicholas Confessore and Jim Rutenberg published NYT December 30, 2011
 * Perry keeps up Bain attacks in S.C. 1/11/12 12:30 PM EST
 * http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0112/71336.html
 * http://www.politico.com/blogs/burns-haberman/2012/01/huckabee-defends-romney-on-bain-110651.html

Internal links 99.19.45.64 (talk) 05:17, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwkDU_AEVzI "WSJ's Neil King looks at continued criticism lodged at Mitt Romney by Newt Gingrich and Rick Perry and the DNC over his tenure at Bain Capital, and specifically job losses."
 * http://www.politico.com/blogs/burns-haberman/2012/01/sc-voter-tells-newt-bain-hits-are-a-mistake-110511.html

Center for Responsive Politics resource
99.181.140.39 (talk) 09:04, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/superpacs.php?cycle=2012
 * See Super PAC resource; PAC Men: Following the Super PAC Soft Money Jan 13, 2012 2:14pm; excerpt ...


 * "Restore Our Future Raised: $12,231,700 Spent: $7,795,104. Treasurer: Charles R. Spies, the general counsel for Romney’s 2008 campaign
 * Citizens for a Working America Raised: $858 Spent: $0. Treasurer: David Langdon
 * Republican Truth Squad Spent: $0"
 * 99.181.133.228 (talk) 07:36, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

potential NYT resource
http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/primaries/candidates/mitt-romney

99.181.138.52 (talk) 03:04, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Report from The New York Times also includes: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/jon-huntsman-dropping-out-of-2012-gop-race-will-endorse-romney/ FYI. . . Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 05:05, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

FiveThirtyEight resource
National Polls Suggest Romney Is Overwhelming Favorite for G.O.P. Nomination by Nate Silver January 16, 2012, 3:15 PM 99.35.12.102 (talk) 02:47, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * These statistics must have changed since Santorum now has won the Iowa Republican caucuses, 2012. 99.181.149.83 (talk) 00:51, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * More current (January 23, 2012, 8:14 PM); Some Signs G.O.P. Establishment’s Backing of Romney Is Tenuous by Nate Silver. 99.190.83.66 (talk) 04:27, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Charlie Rose (talk show) resources

 * http://www.charlierose.com/guest/view/7349 Michael Kranish,
 * http://www.charlierose.com/guest/view/44 Thomas DeFrank,
 * http://www.charlierose.com/guest/view/13 Mark Halperin,

99.181.154.161 (talk) 06:47, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

NYT resources
Tightening Race Comes as Abrupt Blow to Romney Team by Jim Rutenberg, Ashley Parker and Jeff Zeleny published January 20, 2012


 * Here is another, In Florida, Romney Plays Down Immigration by Lizette Alvarez, published January 24, 2012; regarding Demographics of Florida, Immigration in the United States, and the Economy of the United States. 99.181.134.88 (talk) 07:07, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

99.181.144.253 (talk) 02:33, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Tea Party movement resource
Mitt Romney drives a wedge into the tea party "In South Carolina, the movement is divided between those inclined to compromise in order to beat President Obama (vote for Romney) and those favoring ideological purity (vote against him)." by Mark Z. Barabak, Los Angeles Times January 21, 2012 via the Chicago Tribune. 97.87.29.188 (talk) 20:29, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Not everyone in the Tea Party votes the same; many, apparently, vote for Mitt Romney . . . (Newt Gingrich, Ron Paul, and Rick Santorum also). The Tea Party movement resource is a voting block split four ways. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 14:59, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Creative destruction resource
97.87.29.188 (talk) 21:17, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Mitt Romney, Bain Capital and the gospel of ‘creative destruction’ by Jia Lynn Yang, Published: January 11 Washington Post

"Possible Vice Presidential picks" section
I think this section should be reworked so that only people who have been specifically mentioned as a possible running mate to Romney should be allowed in, and a reliable source indicating this be required. Trump's citations don't currently seem to do this, only indicating that he has met with Romney and that it is the opinion of one writer that he should be Romney's running mate. Chris the Paleontologist (talk • contribs) 20:54, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * FYI, "... Romney [said] he hadn't made a list regarding potential Vice Presidential picks, arguing it would be 'presumptuous'." ... Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 04:13, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

"Possible Vice presidential picks" section RfC
Seeing as though my previous post didn't get any attention in a week, I'm making an RfC. I still believe that nobody should be listed in this section unless their discussion as a possible running mate to Romney has been specifically mentioned in a reliable source, and that source is cited. Christie, Rubio and McDonnell are currently unsourced, and Trump's sources aren't the best, as I pointed out above. Chris the Paleontologist (talk • contribs) 00:41, 7 February 2012 (UTC) Going a step further: the section should probably not be included at all, and only be re-introduced when Romney is nominated or recognized as the presumptive nominee in reliable sources. At the very least, unsourced entries should be removed. Chris the Paleontologist (talk • contribs) 01:36, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed that only names that are reliably sourced should be included. I would go a step further and say that "possible VP picks" section should not be in the article until Romney is recognized by reliable sources as the the Republican presumptive nominee.--JayJasper (talk) 00:50, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's almost assuming that Romney will be the Republican nominee, and certainly seems POVish. Upon second thought, you're probably right, and I've changed the RfC. Chris the Paleontologist  (talk • contribs) 01:36, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete all VP speculation as premature until no reasonable person would dispute contention that this candidate is the presumptive nominee.--Brian Dell (talk) 08:28, 8 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think there's any harm in listing reliably-sourced speculation. Ideally we'd have similar sections for other 2012 campaigns and for past unsuccessful primary campaigns. The context (i.e. that he's not the nominee yet and might never be) could be made clearer if the section were in prose rather than list format. – hysteria18 (talk) 16:14, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Reject all such speculation as the political equivalent of fancruft, and equally non-encyclopedic in nature. It has no place here, under WP:UNDUE and WP:CRYSTAL. -- Orange Mike &#x007C;  Talk  14:05, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree w/ Bdell555 & Orangemike. Remove the section. Revisit if & when Romney is established as the presumptive nominee.--JayJasper (talk) 20:31, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree with minimizing entries to 'Possible VP selection'. Romney will win at the Republican Convention in August in Florida and not before. How can you minimize the people listed? By including only the most credible. .!. . Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a grocery store Enquirer. .!. . . . Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 12:28, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I just looked over to the Article and the section in question is not there, for now. Upon further reflection I think it is good that it is not, at this time. Rush Limbaugh reminds us that in debates, Ron Paul and Mitt Romney did not follow the apparent norm of attacking everyone else on stage which included Gingrich and Santorum. Is Rand Paul in consideration for an ambassadorship or the VP selection?  Rush noticed this in January but didn't say anything then. Now he does and other sources notice this now also.  I think it is very presumptive to over-think what is in the mind of Romney and his campaign strategists. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 12:40, 26 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment. Let me add myself to the list of editors against including the section. We could have a similar section if Romney is nominated, but putting it in now seems speculative and unencyclopedic. —  Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 00:21, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree, it should be removed. Jack Bornholm (talk) 09:23, 7 March 2012 (UTC)


 * support any section with reliably sourced material Bouket (talk) 08:09, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree, let's support it. Thanks.Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 21:27, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I just looked again over to the article and the section is back (with four VP possibilities). Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 00:43, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * We may not know till May (or until convention in August in Tampa FL). Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 00:46, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Not only is the VP list back, we now have pictures of four that will never be VP. On TV Romney said it's too early. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 04:25, 3 April 2012 (UTC)


 * WHAT IS THE CRITERIA FOR THIS SECTION????--William S. Saturn (talk) 05:00, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Support/Keep - Romney has made statements about what type of VP he would choose and the media has been covering the topic of potential VP candidates. Analysts have made comments. The issue speaks for itself, not necessary to place arbitrary limits on editors who may find something to contribute. It can be discussed on a case by case basis. Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 20:58, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment I don't have a problem with including a "possible VP pics" section although it's not really necessary to include a massive table with pictures, surely a list would be much better. When he inevitably wins the nomination, speculation in reliable sources will increase and the GOP candidates page had a "speculated candidates" section. My only question is, where are Rubio, McDonnell and Jindal? After Christie, they've been the 3 I've seen the most speculation over and they're not listed? Tiller54 (talk) 22:09, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Rubio has removed himself from consideration, and Jindal has not even endorsed Romney or supported Romney. Candidates that are too far out of line with Romney on issues are probably much less likely to be selected anyway. The topic contains important information. Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 21:46, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * "Candidates that are too far out of line with Romney on issues are probably much less likely to be selected anyway" - According to who? you?
 * "The topic contains important information." That sounds a bit like WP:USEFUL. If you are adamant about adding this section, you need to drop the POV opening, and develop an actual criteria for listing. A start would be for you to use sources that actually speculate an individual may be selected, and to not simply pick and choose candidates based on your own judgment. As part of NPOV, if you insist on this, you have an obligation to list all candidates that receive mention.--William S. Saturn (talk) 21:24, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * There is no need to place arbitrary limits on editors. The topic speaks for itself. Its sourced information. If you have suggestions for inclusion you should make them and stop removing the work of others.Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 19:55, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * If there's no criteria then the list is POV and I will continue to remove it.--William S. Saturn (talk) 22:07, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * List is not POV. The topic has a cited source taht discusses inclusion. If you have suggestions for inclusion you should make them. Please do not remove the work of others.Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 22:13, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * If there are sources discussing these individuals as possible VP's, the content is appropriate. It's the inclusion of a "Religion" category wording like "Christie lacks business experience; he has experience as a lobbyist, U.S. Attorney, and Governor" that pushes the boundaries of WP:OR, WP:SYNTH, and WP:NPOV. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:14, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree the VP section is appropriate. Religion is just demographic/biographical information. Its a fact that Christie lacks business experience, but the wording can change.Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 22:23, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * You are cherry-picking. For example, you list this as a source, but you only show certain candidates and fail to mention Rubio, Sandoval, Martinez, Haley, and Fortuno. This article is about the Romney campaign, and should not stray from this, particularly with such a prominent section. Do you have a source showing the Romney campaign is actively recruiting the individuals listed? Perhaps a NPOV-version of this list could be added to a new article of its own as it was in 2008. At the moment, nothing more than a mention is appropriate.--William S. Saturn (talk) 22:51, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thomas Paine1776 is even cherrypicking from my response. It's OR/SYNTH/NPOV to even assume that things like religion and type of experience is a pro or con for the Romney team in deciding on their VP. The section as you've edit warred to restore is unacceptable. I've reported the user at WP:3RRNB. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:58, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I've commented there.--William S. Saturn (talk) 23:08, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree with those who've said the VP section is appropriate. Have no objection to adding names. You're certainly free to add names. Rubio was listed at one time and his name was removed by someone else who noted it when he had removed himself from consideration. Have been looking at adding Sandoval, however, Sandoval endorsed Perry and does not not appear have endorsed Romney even before the Nevada caucuses. Gov. Tim Pawlenty and Gov. Suzanna Martinez have recently removed themselves from consideration. I you have suggestions please give them. Biographical information is simply factual. The lead section you objected to was removed in case you didn't notice. Wholly removing sourced content is not appropriate.Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 23:15, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Removal is appropriate when material is irrelevant to an article's subject.--William S. Saturn (talk) 19:12, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

The vice-presidential speculation in the "Presumptive Presidential Nominee" section should at least resemble the "Republican Party Vice Presidential Candidates, 2012" article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.145.205.64 (talk) 13:37, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The Wikipedia article, Republican_Party_vice_presidential_candidates,_2012 looks pretty good to me. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 15:16, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

What he stands for
Where's the section on his campaign platform? Can we put a summary of Political positions of Mitt Romney here? --Uncle Ed (talk) 23:55, 10 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Ed, I really enjoyed reading your user page. I'll work on a draft of a summary. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 15:02, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Etch-A-Sketch
I believe this should be added to the article, but first a discussion is in order. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:33, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Be sure to include the PR-man's full quote (and the question before it) and then Romney's explanation. It comes at a time others may drop out. It is tempest in a teacup, and I am not sure it raises to the level of importance here. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 01:12, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, I may be changing my mind on this. Santorum, Gingrich, and the media thought the comment of the Romney advisor was 'red meat' whereas Romney explained things rather well. It should go under the category we have for 'Controvery'. .!. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 00:37, 24 March 2012 (UTC) (And it should be medium-short.)

There is some interesting writing at Etch_A_Sketch .!. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 14:50, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ Good idea, Muboshgu. Check it out. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 06:08, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks good! – Muboshgu (talk) 20:26, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Religion
Why is the elephant in the room (his religion) also the elephant on this page? Why's there no section on it? It's a sensitive subject the guy is playing down for electoral reasons. Hence, it's an issue. (Also, how big is his cousin's apostasy and criticism of Mormonism over there in the US? The BBC just did this article on it... but as a Brit it's hard for me to tell the importance of it). Malick78 (talk) 16:09, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Is no one interested because it was exhausted in 2008? Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 06:11, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, nobody wanted to risk having Mitt flip-flop on his religious beliefs, but in his 666th unforced error of the campaign (so far), he's decided to bring up the issue himself.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/04/03/457068/romney-obama-hopes-to-establish-secularism-as-an-official-religion/


 * Insert youtube link to video of Kermit the frog going Yayyy! here I suppose. Hcobb (talk) 12:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Romney (LDS) will take the approach of JFK (Catholic) to recognize the boundaries. Voters will also. It could remain a problem with bigots, but not with the majority of likely voters. (FYI, and in my humble opinion.) What do you think? . . . Have you seen anything reported in reportable sources? You could note that both John F. Kennedy and Mitt Romney made a significant speech addressing the subject of their religion early on in their campaign cycle. Based on their campaign results, people seem to have accepted their religion, at least so far with Romney. Ann Romney is very popular also. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 04:01, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Trump as VP !?
You guys gotta be kidding. Trump duplicates Mitt's big strength - business. - and brings a world of baggage. He's also impossible to work with. Don't you guys have any political common sense? 174.254.197.154 (talk) 20:39, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Check this unofficial list out: http://mittromneycentral.com/2012/04/09/veep-madness-round-1-cast-your-votes/#more-56558. . . . Have fun, Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 09:19, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Cookiegate
Arthur Rubin and have been edit warring over whether to include content about the flap over Romney's disparaging remarks about cookies from a "beloved local bakery" owned by a Republican in Bethel Park, Pennsylvania. The press has picked it up under the name, and the content is extremely well cited, with eight separate refs. Arthur thinks it's undue and even a BLP violation, according to the most recent of his three reverts. Whether it's undue or not is a judgement call that should be worked out here, rather than by edit warring, but to assert that sourced statements of this nature about a major political figure constitute a BLP violation is so utterly ridiculous that I reverted Arthur's 3rd reversion just on that basis alone. On a side note, it appears at first glance that one might be following the other's edits, but I'm not sure who's doing the following and who's being followed. An admin with more patience than I have at present might like to look into that. – OhioStandard  (talk) 09:46, 21 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Despite the presence of the above, and despite my previous edit-summary request that editors involved in this dispute work it out here rather than edit war over the passage, user just performed a "drive by revert", ie a revert without joining the discussion here to try to achieve consensus. In that 15:20, 21 April 2012 revert, he gave the edit summary "no consensus for inclusion of this contested, trivial recentism". I would invite him to read the don't revert due to no consensus essay, and remind him that the development of consensus happens on talk pages. There's no consensus yet for anything, including his revert, since no one else has used this talk page to discuss this matter so far.


 * Further, F&H's evident opinion as to whether something is "trivial" or not is completely irrelevant. What's is relevant is how significant reliable sources think it is. Deleting content with 8 refs, when another 10 or more could easily be added as well, on the basis that it's "trivial" certainly calls for discussion. It's not something that can legitimately be based only on his opinion. FWIW, own opinion is that the kerfuffle would have been trivial, ie the news media wouldn't have made much of it, but for the baker's comment, "Next time, let him eat cake." That's obviously a highly political statement, obviously a reference to Romney's wealth, and one that characterises him as out of touch with the people, like Marie Antoinette was supposed to have been. Coming from a fellow Republican, that's noteworthy, imo, and the national media evidently agrees.


 * Finally, F&H's "recentism" claim seems hard to sustain, in that everything about the Romney presidential campaign is "recentism". In any case, he needs to try to make his case here, and base his edits on whatever consensus may emerge, instead of simply acting unilaterally to get his way. –  OhioStandard  (talk) 16:36, 21 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Fat&Happy reverted a second time, six minutes after I posted the comment immediately above, still without use of this talk page. –  OhioStandard  (talk) 16:48, 21 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Perhaps if OhioStandard would stop typing long enough to give someone else a chance, the discussion could contain alternate viewpoints.
 * Actually, it's the responsibility of those (two) people attempting to insert contentious material into any article – especially a BLP – to get consensus for the insertion on the talk page. Until that consensus is reached, the material should stay out despite OhioStandard's attempt to edit-war it back in. This is, some seem to forget, an encyclopedia, not a gossip column or a political blog. A flurry of activity over a candidate's faux pas du jour does not constitute an indication of encyclopedic importance. Fat&#38;Happy (talk) 16:56, 21 April 2012 (UTC)


 * There's no percentage in making snide comments or accusing others, quite falsely, of edit warring: I've tried repeatedly to engage opposing editors here, and F&H simply refused until now. His theorizing above and in his previous edit summary that BRD applies not only to two individuals, but is also appropriately extendible to third persons is interesting, but a bit too academic for me so early in the morning. He might like to read BRD a little more closely, too, e.g. "Don't invoke BRD as your reason for reverting someone else's work or for edit warring: instead, provide a reason that is based on policies, guidelines, or common sense."


 * The main purpose of the wp:brd cycle is to bring editors to the talk page to do exactly that, i.e. to provide a basis for article improvement via reasoned, policy-based discussion rather than edit warring. Now, we have two editors in favor of the disputed passage, and two who oppose, so far, with only one (ahem!) of the four presenting any substantive, policy-based arguments one way or the other here. As I've already indicated, I'd be pleased to hear F&H explain why, for example, we should allow his personal opinion that this is "trivial", to use his word, to trump the fact that so many media properties have seen fit to report on it. –  OhioStandard  (talk) 18:00, 21 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Besides hoping for policy-based discussion here, I'd also ask that all editors refrain from further suggestions that deletion is justified in this instance by WP:BLP. It's frankly offensive to ask anyone to believe that in this case. Crying, "Help! Help! BLP! BLP!" to win a content dispute whenever someone adds a well-cited a passage you dislike to an article about your favourite politician trivialises the policy and makes it less effective when it really is needed. –  OhioStandard  (talk) 18:59, 21 April 2012 (UTC)


 * My sense is that the so-called Cookiegate incident is likely to fail the 10-year test and consequently does not merit inclusion in the article, per WP:RECENTISM. I doubt that this incident will be remembered even 3 months from now, let alone 3 years or 10 years from now. In fact, I've been surprised at how much attention it's received in the media. Tempest in a teapot. I guess they have to make up news when things are slow. So I favor not including a mention of Cookiegate in the article. (That opinion could change if there continues to be ongoing discussion in the media and among political commentators about Cookiegate. I, for one, would not have mentioned the Seamus-the-dog incident in an article about the campaign when that topic first came up in this election cycle, but it has proved to be a topic of wide and enduring interest, and I suspect that it will be one of the factoids that people remember about Mitt Romney 20 years from now, so it does merit inclusion.)
 * Having said that, if Cookiegate is to be included in this article, the way it is presented MUST be changed. The line currently being discussed is: While visiting Bethel Park, Pennsylvania, Romney stated cookies from a local bakery must have come from a 7-11, insulting the Republican bakery owner John Walsh. "Let him eat cake next time," Walsh said. At a minimum, there needs to be at least some kind of acknowledgement that Romney did not intend (so far as has been reported) to insult anyone -- so add the word inadvertently, or unintentionally, or accidentally, or something. It would probably also be best, if Cookiegate were to be included, to provide some kind of context explaining why campaign observers have felt this was a notable incident. From the commentary I have seen, some political observers have suggsted that it was (yet another) example of Romney's difficulty making small talk and connecting with "average people" on the campaign trail.Dezastru (talk) 01:10, 22 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your reasoned post on this, Dez. I think the content was added as a single line in a kind of pre-emptively defensive way, i.e. that it was so brief because the editor who initially added it expected he'd see some opposition to it here, and wanted to keep it to the "bare bones" for that reason. But if we can find sources that say Romney did the civil in the way you describe - and I'd agree that there probably are some, at least from his campaign if not from himself - then I'd be wholly in favor of including any such mitigating statements. –  OhioStandard  (talk) 08:36, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

( ← outdenting ) Are you all discussing deleted subsection Cookiegate and the Also see Let Them Eat Cake here? 99.181.148.5 (talk) 20:55, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The "See also" is absurd, even if the material were adequately sourced and not in violation of WP:BLP. — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 03:46, 23 April 2012 (UTC)


 * @ IP-hopper 99.x, I'll give you the respect of assuming you already know the answer to that. Now if you and Arthur would like to suspend your mutual entertainments for a bit, I'd be pleased if you'd make a substantive effort toward reaching consensus here.
 * @ Arthur : I understand why you find the "see also" objectionable; that occurred to me, too. But something like half our readers don't have English as their native language, iirc. Can you think of any other way to communicate the intended context to people who may not already be familiar with the ostensibly historical quotation? Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd explain what you think is wrong with the sources, and disclose the basis for your view that this constitutes a BLP violation. It's the "see also", I suppose? Thanks, –  OhioStandard  (talk) 22:35, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * There are many news items on this socio-political gaffe. It is noteworthy here or some connected controversies article.  97.87.29.188 (talk) 23:31, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Here are some from a quick Google search:
 * Romney struggles to close favorability gap with Obama on MSNBC
 * Romney expected to raise $600K at Trump fundraiser April 17, 2012 The Hill (newspaper) (Donald Trump)
 * In picking VP, just find someone to help win on Politico.com April 23 2012
 * And previously related Romney’s ‘Let Them Eat Cake’ Moment February 1, 2012 The New Republic
 * 99.181.142.150 (talk) 03:39, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
 * To begin with, stop pretending that you different editors. Even assuming the clearly false statement that all of those "news articles" are reliable, and, even if there are "many news articles" mentioning this particular gaffe, it doesn't mean it deserves as much as a paragraph in this article.  Please see WP:UNDUE.
 * And, to reply to the the real editor who seems to be interested in improving Wikipedia, most of the references are not to reliable sources or conventional news media. The first time the anon (yes, all of them are clearly the same person) added it, there was no reliable source provided, making the accusation a WP:BLP violation on its face.  The controversies here are probably already WP:UNDUE weight in regard the campaign; even if this one were adequately sourced, some of the other controversies would need to be removed.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 08:01, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The Wall Street Journal's take Romney’s Cookie Comment Bites Back April 18, 2012, 6:49 PM 97.87.29.188 (talk) 22:14, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Without knowing placement, a column in the WSJ does not indicate notability. — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 22:21, 24 April 2012 (UTC)


 * After having considered this for a while, now, I'm going to withdraw my objection to the revert. I still think it merits the single sentence that was added − although probably not its own section − but it's not anything I feel is worth this much contention, either. The whole long-term goings on between Arthur and our IP hopping friend does leave me with some questions, though, and since I see the two are now at ANI (link/snapshot) over another article, I'll probably comment in that thread. –  OhioStandard  (talk) 15:32, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Quayle picture
Should we really keep it? Specifically in the endorsement section? It's not his most noteworthy endorsement, but I suppose it was an early indication he'd be backed by high-ranking people of the party. J390 (talk) 15:18, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Out of place. The picture really sticks out like a sore thumb. What point is the contributor trying to make? Dezastru (talk) 19:04, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree. I think we should remove it. J390 (talk) 21:06, 4 May 2012 (UTC)