Talk:Mjölnir/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Mjolnir as defiance, hmm...

I have a few problems with this part:

"Emblematic of their devotion were the appearance of miniature replicas of Mjolnir. Widely popular in Scandinavia, they were used in Blóts and other sacral ceremonies, such as weddings. Many of these replicas where also found in graves and tended to be furnished with a loop, allowing them to be worn. They were most widely discovered in areas with a strong Christian influence including southern Norway, south-eastern Sweden, and Denmark. [5] By the late 10th century, increased uniformity in Mjolnir’s design over previous centuries suggest it functioned as a popular accessory worn in defiance of the Christian cross – even while sometimes being worn alongside it. This may be part of why wearing the cross upside down is considered defiant."

Although this could be the case, it does not seem to be the most likely. I will take it that most people here know at least a little about not only Norse and/or greater Germanic Mythology, but also later Folklore? As we all know that both Odin/Woden and Thor survived in Folklore far after the foundation of Christianity as the largest religion in Scandinavia, in that Thor was said to cause lightning and fight Trolls and Woden was said to lead the Wild Hunt. So could it not be the case (and I think it is) that the Hammer was not generally worn (though it could have been in some cases) as an act of defiance, but in the joining of two strands of belief. The very fact that the Cross and Hammer were in many cases worn side by side reflects this view (which is not wholly mine, but is widespread), that Thor was still called upon in the Christian era not as an act of defiance but still as a protector of the people. Let's not get caught up with the cheesey 'Black Metal' view of things and concentrate on what we know. We know that Thor and Woden (as well as many 'monsters' from Norse Heathenism...I will use Heathen as it is Germanic...Pagan is Latin) were revered (though not as Gods) in the Christian era and we have accounts of both the Christian and Heathen symbols being worn....so why suspect some other reason than the most likely other than personal opinion? Thank you for your time. Sigurd Dragon Slayer

I can see how both are possible. Rather than giving just one view why not give both? It's obvious that over time the Mjollnir and cross merged (just look at the Islandic Dragon's Head hammer), however since the spread of christianity was especially slow in the north and that christianity was thrust upon the Norsemen it's also entirely feasible if not probable that it was at one point worn as an act of distinguishing themselves from the Christian which could be seen as an act of defiance. SynthesiseD 19:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe someone should put both points of view (as well as sourcing the current one) into the article. I may doit, if I have enough time to shift through all my sources...etc...if not it would be goog if another Wikipedian could write about the matter. Sigurd Dragon Slayer —Preceding comment was added at 14:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Attention Halo Fans

Yes, the armor is called Mjolnir. Please see List of references to Mjolnir in pop culture. It's there. People keep adding it to this article, it's not needed. Especially as a reference :) -- RevRagnarok 00:39, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Move 2004

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I've taken the initiative to move Mjollnir to Mjolnir, after having compared results on Google (24,900 for Mjolnir, 8,250 for Mjollnir). Since both spellings are probably valid, the one that is closer to Icelandic, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, etc. spellings (which all only have one 'l') and that has the more results on Google is probably more appropriate for Wikipedia. Andre 02:27, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Games

The "God of Thunder" sentence in the "Games" section is unfinished. ShawnVW

It is a name of an alliance in a game called King (or Queen) of the World.

Nationalism etc.

It's silly to add the part about how some nationalists and rightists wear mjolnir pendants or use it as a symbol of heritage. That is not a fact unique to mjolnir, just as it is not unique to the American flag or the bald eagle. The entry should be about what the mjolnir is, not what some people try to use it for. Otherwise we'd be adding endless entries about countless objects that "some people" use for "something."

Agreed. -Anon

I completely agree also. SynthesiseD 19:40, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

hmm, here in austria and germany it is very popular among nazis, the german version of this article mentions it. today a friend of mine asked me why certain members of a right wing party had mjolnir around their neck. i can't link to this article to explain it because it is not mentioned here. of course the use by fascists isn't predominant, still it should be mentioned. 84.114.202.215 11:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

That's interesting. In the UK it doesn't have many Nazi associations, I wear one a lot and most people either do not know what it is (and thus ask about it) or do realise what it is and ask if I worship the old Gods. I suppose it's like many of the symbols from Germanic heathenism, they mean different things to different people. I think, if it is true, that we should mention that some Nazis, Fascists, Nationalists...etc...use it as a symbol for their ideology. Sigurd Dragon Slayer —Preceding comment was added at 14:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the article should include what the symbol has been associated with in modern times. If fascist groups in Germany/Austria use it as their symbol, that should be in the article, as well as the Swedish nationalist bit. Of course, this is just my opinion, but it seems like valid information to me. --AnticScarab3 (talk) 22:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

German nazis would use anything as symbols, mostly to piss any group off that was using the symbol as identification before (cf. skinheads). The hammer is NOT a nazi symbol, like all nordic symbolism it's just popular with them because it's "nordic". Us metalheads are tired of being asked all the time just because some dimwit read it on the intarwebs. — Ashmodai (talk · contribs) 22:36, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Another game to add to the list

In the game Eve online, Mjolnir is the name of the torpedos launched by battleships that do electromagnetic damage(EM)

Ok, add it if there is an article on them. Bonus Onus

List of references to Mjolnir in pop culture

I felt this article was being overwhelmed by the list of pop culture references to mjolnir, so I collected those items and created a List of references to Mjolnir in pop culture. I think this setup will keep this article from accumlating too much cruft and provides a logical spot provide for links to games and comics that have an item named mjolnir. --NormanEinstein 13:58, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that, norman. Bonus Onus 19:00, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

Nice work. It was starting to get out of hand. SynthesiseD 20:00, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Forwarding link

(Never mind, i figured out the problem...) --SWA 00:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Done. Thanx for the heads up. It was [[Sindri (Norse mythology)]]. — RevRagnarok Talk Contrib Reverts 00:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Heathen vs. Pagan

72.71.209.61, Can we please stop playing tug of war with line twelve of the overview? Although they both mean an adherent to a religion other than Islam, Judaism or Christianity, heathen is more often used in a negative or discriminatory way. --Cheeesemonger 16:46, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

This is from my talk page (it was 72.71.209.61 who left it):
Sorry if I pissed you off by substituting the phrase "Norse heathens" for "Norse pagans". I am a proud Norse heathen and follow the religious beliefs passed down to me by my Norwegian grandfather from his Norwegian forefathers.
Many of my family prefer the term "heathen" to differentiate ourselves from the neo-hippie "pagans" who also practice some aspects of the old religion. I also prefer it because "heathen" descends from a norse word "heithni". I do not find the word "heathen" as offensive as you do (apparently) and meant no offense to you personally.
At any rate, I don't want you to get in a tizzy because of my personal grammatical preferences. Feel free to revert my edit again. It is, after all, a free encyclopedia.
Kærir Þakkir,
E. Larsson
Makes sense to me. As I replied, I assumed it was the exact opposite too - meant to be offensive. But apparently, it isn't. — RevRagnarok Talk Contrib 16:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

oh. --Cheeesemonger 20:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey Cheesemonger,

I honestly don't care what term other people use. I have no intention of playing "tug-of-war" with you or anyone else over it. Rest assured I will make no further attempts to change the word back to "heathens" if you prefer "pagans" so much.

Couple of things I'd like to politely point out to you, though.

First, this is the "free encyclopedia that anyone can edit". My edits are no more or less important than yours. 'Nuff said.

Second, my family and I represent a very small number of people who still follow the old religious traditions of Norse heathendom. Though concessions have obviously been made, none of my ancestors that I can trace ever really converted to christianity. My religious beliefs were handed down to me through many many generations and I am happy and very comfortable with them. I did not have to make a decision to convert to "the old ways" as many self styled "Pagans" have.

If my grandfather called our beliefs "den gammla sið" (the old way) then that's what I call it. If he called us "heiðinnar" (roughly translated as "heathen") that's fine with me. I'm no theologian, but it seems to me that the true followers of a religion have a right to call themselves what they will. If you do some looking around you might find that many of the new age "Pagans" who have adopted our religion don't mind being called "Heathens" either.

Third, being politically correct is nice, but let's not overdo it. I know a girl who doesn't use the word "Jew" because she thinks it sounds derrogatory. My Jewish friends think that is laughable and prefer to be called "Jews" because that's what they are.

Kærir Þakkir,

Einar Larsson

Using the same argument as the people who wanted to merge mjollnir with mjolnir, they are synonyms, and a google search for pagan returns much more than one for heathen. --Cheeesemonger 16:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of what google thinks, this article is about a part of germanic history and the word heathen is of germanic origins (from heithni) wheras pagan is from non-germanic origins (Latin, paganus). They both mean the same thing, both were used interchangably, but heathen has germanic origins and as this is an article about germanic mythology the word heathen is more appropriate.

Einar Larsson. Don't make up FamTrad BS, you're making yourself sound as bad as *shudders* the Wiccans. There are no unbroken heathen chains, it's in our blood and that's good enough, making up FamTrad (which someone obviously has done somewhere down the line whether that be you, your father, your grandfather, et cetera) cheapens that blood link . . . so kindly refrain from spouting such drivel. SynthesiseD 19:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

That's a wonderful combination of ignorance and arrogance you're displaying there, SynthesiseD. You know it all, so there is no point in anyone else speaking up. Unfortunately I guess that's one of humanity's trademark failings.

I feel ashamed to explain this to you, since you are obviously so well informed about my family traditions, my lineage, my religious beliefs, and heathendom in general, but let me state my opinion more clearly for you with some simple points.

1. My family is of Norwegian and Icelandic origin. Although both lands were definitely "christianized" the old beliefs still held sway in many places.

2. There are no christians in my family line that I know of, and none that my grandfather knew of or that his father told him of.

3. I honestly have no idea what my great great grandfather's religion was, he could have been a baptist for all I know. I hope I didn't give you the impression I believed I belonged to an unbroken line of heathens dating back to Viking times because I'm sure I don't. That kind of fantasy would be a complete waste of time.

4. This whole debate started with me substituting the word "heathen" for the word "pagan". Given the amount of typing I've done since then, I wish I'd kept my mouth shut.

5. I agree that Google should not be the yardstick by which we judge the validity of a subject.

6. SynthesiseD, I will heed your most kind and erstwhile directives and refrain from spouting any more "drivel" on this overtaxed subject.

removed

E. Larsson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.64.8.17 (talk • contribs)

No Personal Attacks. ❝Sverdrup❞ 14:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. Why don't you resolve this pissing match by including in the body of the article a simple sentence that clarifies the relationship between the words "heathen" and "pagan" and communicates the specialized meaning that the former conveys when used in this context? rowley (talk) 19:10, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
I think you're about five years late to the "pissing match". - SudoGhost™ 19:33, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Dark Elves/Dark alfs

Hello have pointed out that the 'dark elves' refered to are a relativly modern mistranslation (well more of a misinterpretation) of Dwarves, Im sorry i cannot find the source YET but i will as soon as I can ,Insofar as I know it occured when a someone with a good knowledge of norwegian(?) translated a edda describing the many races and didnt get that the race being described were dwarves. I remember reading it as a historical note added to a modern translation of the eddas (into english) so as soon as i can dig out the file i will add the reference.but untill then if people are unhappy with the change ,by all means revert, im mainly changing it as I am fairly certain that there are no 'dark elves' in the norse mythos

See Svartálfar. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 23:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

sorry but your wrong people guess that they are one and the same however they have seperate names and are described differently —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.39.48 (talk) 10:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Only 93%???

Searching for Mjolnir brings this page up as a 93% match, whereas the use in Halo comes up as a 100% match. That just doesn't seem right to me. Can it be fixed? Kelvingreen 11:09, 11 October 2006 (UTC) Spelling. Norum 06:31, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Wouldn't the original pronunciation be [mjøːlnər] rather than [mjolnər]? Or is [mjolnər] the English pronunciation? 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 23:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The current IPA pronounciation (mjolnər) doesnt look correct because the wikipedia IPA chart doesnt have a "o" or "r" character. does anyone know the correct IPA pronounciation? Mloren 13:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I pronounce it Mole-Near, as to me, that comes the most natural. I could be wrong, and I offend Thor, I am deeply sorry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.166.101.61 (talk) 20:54, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

example images

We have a bunch of example images shown, with attribution as to which culture they represent ... but how do we know that? Where is the actual attribution showing that those various shapes are from, or were used in, those cultures?--Vidkun 21:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Vidkun, this is a good question. Like many other elements of Germanic polytheism, this is particularly blurry. Right now, it's a matter of cataloguing what exists. There's no source at the moment, for example, that gives a complete list of found Mjolnir pendants and most on the internet that are shown are just the same hammers over and over again. If anyone knows of a detailed listed of discovered Mjolnir pendants, I am quite interested in seeing it and it would benefit this article immensely. In the mean time, I will add a tag to the image. :bloodofox: 15:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Maby we should put the pronunciation in the article when we find it. I would be very useful.

I Know 7 19:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


Tor / Thor

the name or the god of thunder is Tor. T(H)or is the danish/norwegian (maybe swedish and icelandic) male-name that have derrived from it. any objections?

Yes, in modern Norway the male name is usually written and pronounced "Tor". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snikburz (talk • contribs) 10:22, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Noegendyr 09:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)noegendyr

Wouldn't think so. Th -> T is a sound shift in modern Scandinavian, cf. thing -> ting, thick -> tykk, think -> tenke etc. where English has retained the original sound, but Scandinavian has shifted. The most common name in English is Thor, based on the Old Norse pronunciation. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 13:03, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


pronounce mjolnir, "m-schol-ner", —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.146.21.47 (talk) 06:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

What? 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 13:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I pronounce it "Mee-y'all-near", emphasis on the all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.175.17.2 (talk) 15:16, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
If you cannot say /ø/, that's probably a good approximation :) dab (𒁳) 08:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
In Swedish it's also Tor, as in Tors Hammare. Norum 06:33, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Modern usage

Shouldn't anything connected to Mjollnir being used outside its mythological context be addressed on the disambiguation pages. To let just one, '..in the comic book' reference in, allows the floodgates to open. And even though I got into Norse mythology through Marvel comics, I would like to see a complete seperation; like the Aegis page. Views? FruitMonkey (talk) 00:37, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the last paragraph of this section is appropriate. I'll suggest to take it off from the page seeing its evident parodistic tone. Jyar (talk) 09:40, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Someone's added its appearance in Iron Man II, without mentioning its role in the Marvel Universe, which seems rather wrongheaded from either perspective. I'll remove that. Daibhid C (talk) 12:55, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Move? 2009

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
  • Mjöllnir → Mjǫllnir — The form with o-hook (representing an open "o" vowel, often derived from an older "a") is the correct Old Norse form; in modern Icelandic it has become "ö", a practice often followed by modern printers for ease of typesetting. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:38, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose use Mjolnir per PManderson instead. 70.29.213.241 (talk) 04:20, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Norse mythology): "When no particular Anglicized form can be said to be in common use in everyday English and English speaking scholars use the standardized Old Norse spelling, use the standardized Old Norse spelling except replace the o-ogonek character (ǫ) with the character 'ö.'" Also oppose move to Mjolnir for the reasons below. Jafeluv (talk) 05:21, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
  • This should be moved/redirected to "Mjölnir" with a single L; there have never been two ells in the name. ---hthth (talk) 00:25, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Norse mythology). I would, however, strongly support changing the article's name to Mjölnir, as this is the more widely used spelling, both in common usage and in scholarly research (from what I have seen). - SudoGhost (talk) 02:24, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose changing ö to o-hook. ---hthth (talk) 11:38, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

Feel free to add the ON form, with source, to the article. You'd need to do that anyway, and readers will be interested. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:29, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

The article needs to be rewritten as it stands. I'll add it to the list. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:32, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with Pmanderson's view that this page should be in Mjolnir. The current naming convention is not to "optimize for lay readers", but use the spelling used by the majority of English language reliable sources. So unless there's a consensus to change the guideline or someone can show that another form is clearly more widely used in English language reliable sources, the correct place for this article is Mjöllnir. Jafeluv (talk) 05:21, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I probably should have actually read through the whole thing before opening my big mouth. However, I still stand by my argument that the article name should reflect the usage of the majority of English language sources. The extra dots in "Mjöllnir" will make the article title no less comprehensible for the general audience (which wouldn't necessarily be the case with, say, "þ" or "ß"). Furthermore, if "Mjöllnir" is in fact the term used in the majority of English language sources, the name does follow the naming convention policy ("article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize"). Jafeluv (talk) 17:04, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 2011

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved, consensus to do so in previous discussion. —James (Talk • Contribs) • 11:39pm • 13:39, 21 April 2011 (UTC)


Mjöllnir → Mjölnir – Both common- and academic spellings of Thor's hammer agree on it being "Mjölnir" with a single 'L'. Moreover, a quick search reveals Wikipedia's writers prefer the latter spelling of a single ell. It should be moved/redirected to "Mjölnir" (please see SudoGhost's agreement above at 02:24, 18 April 2011) -hthth (talk) 20:44, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

  • Strong Support as per my statement in the previous move discussion. I'm not aware of ever coming across an academic source spelling Mjölnir with two l's, and is by no means the norm in common usage. Google results for Mjölnir: about 1,300,000. Results for Mjöllnir: 360,000 results (and most of those seem to be wikias and blogs, which often reflect information found in Wikipedia articles). - SudoGhost (talk) 03:00, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
  • I don't care either way. Both spellings are found in the original manuscripts. Haukur (talk) 07:52, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
  • Comment I don't see any evidence this was moved... did someone forget? 184.144.163.181 (talk) 23:32, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment I went ahead and moved the page to Mjölnir. - SudoGhost (talk) 00:40, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

can't edit notes / broken link

i found a broken link, the one about the inmate. did some searching, found working link. someone please substitute this for the old, non-working one.

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/va-inmate-can-challenge-denial-of-thors-hammer — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.209.107.229 (talk) 13:33, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Done, thank you. - SudoGhost 13:35, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Standardise Spelling in Article

Can we please decide on one "correct" form of Mjölnir, whichever it is, and stick to it? The use of "Myollnir" in the article is incorrect from even modern Norse/Germanic languages, and as this is an article on the historical significance of Thor's Blunt Instrument, could we please use the historically correct version?

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