Talk:Mockney

from Vfd
On 11 Mar 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep. See Votes for deletion/Mockney for a record of the discussion. &mdash;Korath (Talk) 18:11, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)

Madonna
I've heard her do fake home counties but never mockney. Should she be in the list?


 * I take it that your'e refering to her attempts at affecting RP, which she certainly tries, bless her! But by the same token, she 'as a good ol' bash at droppin' certain let-ers, speshley when she's ar-rarned her old man! Best wishes, Lion King 16:50, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Madonna was actually only born in Bay City, she was raised and educated in Rochester Hills, MI.

Social linguistic research
Although I am not aware of specific research on Mockney (although it does certainly exist), I think that a lot of general social linguistic explanations could be added. At the moment the article reads as quite judgemental. Dialect has always been a hot topic in the UK, defining social class there more than it does in other English speaking countries.

Even the term 'Mockney' is rather judgemental, suggesting something fake or non-genuine, or possibly a derisory attitude to Cockney itself. I would imagine that practising social linguists might prefer a different term.

Clearly what is going on is that 'Urban Youth Culture' is percieved as being cool (or having prestige), at least to some people. Thus, some people immitate the accent. But it does look like that it is a separate and distinct dialect from Cockney. I do believe however, that somethings are being conflated. As mentioned in the article, people do adjust their idiolect depending on circumstances (such as who they are talking to, and what relationship they wish to create between themself and the listener in terms of power and social space). In this sense, they might adopt a more colloquial manner of speech, and this could resemble Mockney. But adjusting your speech temporarily does not necessarily indicate membership or identification with a particular social group.

I think the important point in this article, is the changing patterns of dialect use in Britain. It is becoming less a matter of social class or region and more a case of cultural identity. And within this context the urban speech patterns of London (the big city, a sign of cutting edge culture and hipness) have taken on prestige. In a sense there is not much new about this. Region accents (or whole dialects) that are associated with culture, breeding (higher social status) have always been immitated. RP itself derives from the Oxbridge speech of the University towns, education being much admired by the middle classes (the greatest exponents of RP, the real upper classes speaking somewhat differently) as a means to social advancement, not depending so much on the luck of birth that aristocracy does. So, a move from 'education' (in its latter day form of Public Schooling) to hipness. 58.107.87.183 10:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I spy an undergraduate.....


 * "Even the term 'Mockney' is rather judgemental, suggesting something fake or non-genuine, or possibly a derisory attitude to Cockney itself." Erm, it is fake (being the word we use for something, as you say, "non-genuine"). That's the whole point. You did, didn't you, read the article you're criticising? As for cultural identity, you're absolutely right: moving to a new social group sometimes requires a change of elocution. Mockney is as valid as RP, Edinburgh Scots, etc. when it comes to making the effort to appear "one of them".--Rfsmit (talk) 20:34, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Merging
I wonder if this article should be merged into Estuary English - after all this is part of the "Estuary convergence", if you get what I mean, isn't it? 62.43.177.158 18:39, 10 July 2006 (GMT)

Reply -- I see your point, but don't think it should be merged, becuase the difference, though sometimes hard to perceive to the untrained ear -- is a qualitative one, and one of "genuinity vs fake". The Estuary accent, though definitely sometimes faked, is also sometimes a genuine indication of cultural change. For example, the common working class accent in areas around Banbury, Didcot, Reading,Slough etc 20/25 years ago was very rural, and very similar to a twangy Gloucester accent in which the "r's" were accentuated and rolled, and the first person appelation "I" was rendered as "Oi". However, after constant exposure to TV, music, the closeness that faster modes of travel bring -- the accent now sounds far more similar to a fairly anonyomous, softer North London accent. It is a genuine phenomena -- Mockney on the other hand -- is fakery, for the ( perceived)end of image and status, and often, shame at having "uncool/unsexy/non street wise" upper middle class roots. Therefore the distinct nature of the mockney, deserves its own page me ole' china! An' may ya enjoy a grea' day sah! 'At's off ta ya squire! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rutherfordlad (talk • contribs) 17:34, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Bill Bailey
When was Bill Bailey accused of being mockney? --84.68.41.131 18:16, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd also like to know. Jeremy Clarkson is another one I don't understand, I've never heard cockney in his accent.  There are others that I could more easily be mistaken on, but I think the inclusions in this article need to be backed up with some substance.   MrAngy 03:03, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Bill Bailey always mentions his west country roots. Chwyatt 10:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

T — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.97.221.43 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Zara Phillips
She is 11th in the British Order of Succession and not really "heir to the throne". Benson85 04:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Lampard, Lily Allen
I don't think that these 2 should be included in the list. Frank Lampard is from the East End and although he went to a private school I stil thinks his accent is genuine. As for Lily Allen she is not from the east end but I have not heard her ever trying to speak with a cockney accent.

Rubbish! She was on Jonathon Ross last week and you could blatently hear her trying to mockney it up then forgetting halfway through - then at the end a beautiful "See ya' layt-errr!". Not sure about her dad though - he just seems to want to be younger than he really is.

Lily Allen not mockney????

Lily Allen IS TOTAL mockney ! Listen to her song SMILE -- it's wall to wall, inescapable mockney hell! Like father, like daughter.Keith Allen is a well off ex public school boy, affecting mockney hell too ! ( See 2nd clip )

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=HZyTOROlo9E

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=AxhQApr-17E —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.138.57.171 (talk) 11:33, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I think there are several dubious includsions in the Mockney list. Frank Lampard is not a classic example of Mockney since his renown has no basis in his accent. Jamie Oliver would be a better example becuase not only is his accent dubious, but it is also a vital part of his image. Blibbka 01:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Damon Albarn was born in Whitechapel and grew up in Leytonstone. Regardless of his social class, is it not possible he acquired his accent by talking to other children he grew up with? Not really Mockney. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.245.34.11 (talk) 15:40, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

His then-girlfriend Justine Frischmann said in public media that Damon made a mockney accent in Blur recordings. She said that in home he spoke differently — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.81.243.102 (talk) 00:27, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Sources needed / possible NPOV
The cited CBC article doesn't constitute a source for a lot of what's in the article (indeed it cites this article). Nor does the everything2 node. Is this article in fact original research? - crazyscot 18:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Van Dyke
"Dick Van Dyke's execrable cockney accent" - is the use of execrable NPOV? - crazyscot 18:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * See Talk:Mary_Poppins_%281964_film%29. AnonMoos 12:51, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Notable mockneys
I renamed it as I dont see how it can relate to popular culture. Seems a little too trivial 77.99.186.110 (talk) 21:05, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I have removed James Marsters from the list. While it is true that his character Spike (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) has a pronounced and probably fake accent, this is *acting*, which is somewhat different to the idea of Mockney, which is faking the Cockney accent in real life. ChrisMalme (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:38, 17 February 2010 (UTC).

I have remove Danny Dyer from the list too. He is a genuine East End, working class lad (see his biog on this site) and his accent will therefore be genuine and not the affected brogue of someone of the middle classes. He attended the same school as I did, and believe me, it's rough! ;)Adagio67 (talk) 12:34, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I just added a few notable Mockneys to the list
-- will self, and paul merton, and here is my mockney evidence -- Will Self is pure Oxbridge, from a very wealthy, upper middle class academic family but here is PURE UNADULTERATED MOCKNEY for ya guvna, and 'e is bang ta rights squire ! I rest me case --

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=xrkk3K46iaU

I also added the following -- David Baddiel ,Phil Jupitus,Jools Holland,and Tracey Emin. Each one of the aforementioned is either resolutely middle, or upper middle class -- but all of them affect, or have indulged in a "White chapel Dick Van Dyke ow's yer favver" twang. It seems out of favour to play up the mockney twang nowadays, so in some cases, their accent has reverted to what it should be ( middle class )-- but if you look at older footage of ALL of the above -- their mockney tones would be enough to scare off the artful dodger and Fagin on a dark night. A quick scan of older youtube footage will bear out me claim m'lud, and may I wish yer all a luvverly evenin' with tha missus, an' may God bless ya. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rutherfordlad (talk • contribs) 17:22, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

eres jools holland doin the ole mockney chat --

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9RL7JJQDzE

Here are more examples of Jools Holland's mockney twang -- A mockney is someone who is middle, or from upper middle class roots, as Jools certainly is, who assumes a cockney accent -- here is more footage. He was a mockney -- http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=hqqjy3Mnn8Q see from the circa 2.00 minute mark.

Anyway -- his accent as shown by those youtube vids -- is classic phony mockney. Do you need any more examples? If so here you go -- http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=bBIzdPrOq14 And there are loads more. That accent is not a real London working class accent -- it is MOCKNEY.

Please also check my youtube links to WILL SELF and KEITH ALLEN for more MOCKNEY evidence. More to follow! Just in case you want proof -- follow the youtube links. 125.138.57.171 (talk) 14:05, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

If you want sourcing -- those youtube links are PERFECT sourcing. Or perhaps you think Self and Holland's and Allen's cockney accents in those youtube links are real? If you do think so, that's very amusing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.138.57.171 (talk • contribs) 14:08, 18 September 2008
 * Please read the Wikipedia guidelines on original research. You need to provide a reliable source which states that the person in question is "mockney" etc, not just provide a recording of their speech. LDHan (talk) 00:28, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't believe you need to provide citations for something that's obvious. For example, we're not providing citations for Jamie Oliver's species being Homo sapiens-sapiens. It's not OR, it's just a fact. If you personally are unfamiliar with what constitutes a mockney accent, perhaps you could contribute to the article to help people like you identify such an accent?--Rfsmit (talk) 20:18, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Origins
Difficult to prove I know but I would dispute the origins and the perceived meaning. At an evening Rushden & Diamonds v Telford United match in the early 1990's a friend and I were discussing the local accent: "Midlanders yet they sound like Cockneys" to which the reply was "Yeah, Mockneys!" A journalist a row behind overheard and the word passed into usage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.89.224.69 (talk) 14:21, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't be absurd. It's an obvious pun, and the term has been attested at least as far back as 1967! -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  16:28, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I think the OED citation has been updated (I don't have access to the on-line version). Compton McKenzie uses the word in an early volume of his autobiography (well before 1989) - I'll try to find the quote.Thomas Peardew (talk) 17:29, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

"Other working-class groups"?
Mockney is an affectation of Cockney. It is doubtful that it describes an affectation of other working-class groups' accents.--Rfsmit (talk) 20:13, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Older (1936) reference
In The New Yorker as far back as 1936 (Vol. 12, p. 85), I've discovered this, "There has been discussion in British newspapers of "Mockney," an epithet used to describe singers who allegedly pitch their accents down a few class levels"! So the term is older than I realized. Anybody got access to better archives of the papers in question? -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  15:57, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That's extraordinary - I've always assumed this phenomenon began with Nigel Kennedy- should definitely be added if possible. --Mattmm (talk) 08:33, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I found a copy of that exact sentence in the 14 January 2008 issue, in the article Full Exposure. I assume that you got that snippet from a service like Google Books, and that it must have provided incorrect publication time details. --Joshua Issac (talk) 00:58, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Eastenders
The Eastenders references seem somewhat irrelevant. When June Brown etc "pretend" to be cockneys isn't it just, er, acting? --Mattmm (talk) 08:33, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Mockney. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20060413235307/http://www.cbc.ca:80/arts/music/thestreets.html to http://www.cbc.ca/arts/music/thestreets.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130912122139/http://www.politicus.org.uk/news/friends-the-one-wiv-georges-mockney-accent_647 to http://www.politicus.org.uk/news/friends-the-one-wiv-georges-mockney-accent_647

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Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 08:04, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Removal of contradict tag
In December 2014, an IP added a contradict tag to this article, though they did not include an edit summary or start a talk page discussion. After reading both that version of the article and the present one, I can only conclude that they were objecting to the following two statements: "One explanation of dialect adoption given in social linguistics is the desire for prestige, that a person is likely to adopt speech patterns (including accent, vocabulary, dialect or even language) which they perceive to be prestigious." "In contrast, mockney seeks to lower the perceived socio-economic class of the speaker." I do not see these as conflicting. The article clearly explains that people adopt this "lowering of socio-economic class" for the perceived benefit of "sounding cool", increasing "street cred", or "rising from humble beginnings". Each of these actions are consistent with someone attempting to increase their prestige. As such I am removing the tag. If anyone wishes to contest this, please feel free to revert.  C Thomas3   (talk) 06:12, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Mick Jagger and George Osborne
I have no idea what the reference to Osborne is. He never puts on a East/South London accent.

And Mick Jagger is from Kent. People from Kent have very strong London accents. It's just how he talks. And I suspect he's probably toning it down, if anything

2A02:C7F:18AE:4900:EC33:9A95:2E91:FAD9 (talk) 11:31, 30 November 2019 (UTC)