Talk:Monégasque dialect

comment
I'm afraid I have no idea what this sentence means:


 * "the œ is pronounced as the French é, and not like the French œu as in bœuf, which is how œ is pronounced in Ligurian, which also uses the character ö to represent this sound."

There are too many whiches and thisses to be disentangled. Does Ligurian have an /ø/ written œ? or is Ligurian œ instead pronounced /e/? Does Ligurian have an /ø/ written ö? or does it sound like /e/? Is there an ö/œ distinction in Ligurian that has been lost in Monégasque? QuartierLatin1968 15:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

"tradiçiùn comes from the Latin traditio[nem], and not from the Italian tradizione." I disagree strongly with the validity of this statement. Monegasque, along with all Ligurian languages, are derived directly from Italian along with strong influences in vocabulary, grammar and syntax from French and related Gallo-Romance languages. In this case, it is uncertain and difficult to determine whether tradiçiùn is derived straight from tradizione or the French tradition, however the distinction is minimal and of little significance, due to the high conservation of vocabulary and the close contact of the two languages.


 * No -- Italian and Monegasque are contemporary varieties. One modern language cannot be derived from another modern language. Rather, they share common ancestors. What you have said is akin to saying that humans evolved from great apes.


 * What you say here is stupidly wrong; you obviously have no understanding of the subject. You're embarrassing yourself by discussing it. At any rate, the correct question here is why it specifies anything about Italian at all? (Same goes for the earlier reference to it being "closely related to Italian"). As a variety of Ligurian, and therefore a gallo-romance language, when the article references this dubious link to Italian, it suggests that Monegasque and Ligurian are somehow varieties of Italian. Discussing its close relationship with Italian seems odd, given that the Gallo-Italic languages are far closer to French. (Of course, the Gallo-Italic group, including Monegasque, Ligurian, Eastern and Western Lombard, etc., are more closely related to each other than they are to French.) These references to Italian sound like attempts to treat Monegasque (and Ligurian) as varieties of Italian, which is obviously not something anyone with even the faintest acquaintance with Romance linguistics would argue. Excalibre (talk) 05:32, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Number of speakers
How many speakers are there, inside and outside Monaco? Every other language article in Wikipedia that I have ever seen includes this. 68.122.3.84 03:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Are there any native speakers at all? The article claims that Monegasque was threatened with extinction in the 70s. A language is threatened with extinction when the remaining speakers are elderly. Those who were elderly in the 70s are dead by now. And even if there are a handfull of native speakers left: Is there something like a language community where Monegasque is used in everyday life? Unoffensive text or character 08:13, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

It looks like the population of Monaco has been used to determine speakers of Monégasque, which is ridiculous -- only about 16,000 of those who live in Monaco are Monégasque and of those, I read that it is mainly the older ones who speak it much, which presumably leaves us with a few thousand. Anyone have a more accurate idea of this? I would assume that native speakers of it outside Monaco would be a tiny amount. Orlando098 (talk) 01:18, 4 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Good question. The article claims that Monégasque is taught at schools, but I'm sceptical whether this actually results in native speakers (even in the cases of Irish and Hawaiian, where there is actual language instruction, the successes are very qualified, and in this case, there's no telling how much time is devoted to the topic, and what the lessons really consist of in practice; the best way to teach a language is immersive, to use it as the language of instruction, and even that does not usually produce native speakers, especially if none are around to talk to). The dominant everyday language of young people is, by far, Standard French, as far as I am aware, and while Standard Italian has some presence in Monaco, it is not the main language of the population. I would be surprised if most students could do more than understand texts written in Monégasque, if even that. Its presence is probably more emblematic than anything, and more like an antiquarian, local-historian interest for the educated. Perhaps there are still a few old people who remember the language being spoken by their parents or grandparents, but that's pretty much it I fear. I understand that the situation of Occitan in France is pretty much the same. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:50, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Official status
Here the language is stated to have official status in Monaco, but the article Monaco states that only French has official status. Which is correct?--Dub8lad1 (talk) 15:05, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Is is æ or œ?
The article talks about "how œ is pronounced in Ligurian"; but the Wikipedia article on Ligurian claims that that language has the character æ but not œ.

So which is it? Is is æ or œ? Oz1cz (talk) 06:51, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

French
I made an edit that contains a translation of a part of the french article of monégasque. I wanna know what french people think of it. Is it good? Is it bad? Or it needs refinement? Crenshire (talk) 04:06, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Vowels
There should be a vowels section on this article. Crenshire (talk) 04:19, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Article restored to previous title
After this article was moved to Monégasque (Language), I restored it to this title on the grounds that the first sentence of the article says that it's a form of Ligurian and not a language of its own. In addition to that, the disambiguator shouldn't have been capitalized anyway, so even on that basis it wouldn't have stayed there. That aside, a move discussion per WP:RM ought to be held before moving this article. (A similar discussion is going on right now at Talk:Flemish.) Largoplazo (talk) 04:43, 18 June 2023 (UTC)