Talk:Montréal-Nord

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

No consensus Duja ► 09:48, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Montréal-Nord → Montreal North — Article should be moved to most commonly used English name (although it is often abbreviated MtlN to avoid the issue entirely), as per Wikipedia policy and Montreal Wikipedians' consensus on similar articles such as Saint Leonard, Quebec and Montreal West, Quebec. Larineso 01:30, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey

 * Add  # Support   or   # Oppose   on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~ .

Survey - Support votes

 * 1) SUPPORT for reasons stated above--Larineso 01:30, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Support per nomination. And should the former city of Montréal-Nord, Quebec be renamed by this logic? —   AjaxSmack     05:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Support per nom. --Serge 21:01, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey - Oppose votes

 * 1) "English name" does not necessarily mean that the words themselves have to be in English; it means that we need to use the name that English speakers actually use in reference to the thing, even if English speakers typically use the untranslated foreign name. Considering that it's not even the slightest bit difficult to find English pages on Google that refer to it as Montréal-Nord, it cannot be clearly asserted that "Montreal North" is the more standard usage in English. And as for the "established consensus", Saint-Leonard is still under debate, and Montreal West is a bit of a unique case in that English usage does show a clear preference for the anglicized form. (My theory about this is that it's because West is the only one of the four cardinal directions where the English and French pronunciations are almost identical to most ears anyway, so English speakers are less reluctant to spell it the more familiar way. But that's only a theory.) Note also Montréal-Est, where a similar move proposal was actually voted down because the evidence actually came down in favour of the conclusion that English speakers don't typically say "Montreal East". Accordingly, oppose. Bearcat 03:28, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Opposed per Bearcat, and I don't think there's anything more I can say because he covered it all. Anyone who is looking for Montréal-Nord will also most likely know the name in French. -Royalguard11 (Talk·Desk·Review Me!) 18:37, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose. per Bearcat. BlankVerse 13:27, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

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 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was no consensus. --BDD (talk) 20:04, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

– This move should not even require discussion. It has been established the Wikipedia article name for second largest city is Canada is "Montreal", not the French spelling of "Montréal". It has also been established that for directional sub-categorizing, we have an article entitled "Montreal West", not the French spelling of "Montréal-Ouest". Why is it then, that for the articles on Montreal's East, North and South sections they are titled under their French spellings? First and foremost, Wikipedia is an ENGLISH encyclopedia. Second, for consistency and clarity sake, to avoid confusion, all directions should be in the same language. Third, and what is most paramount, under Wikipedia's Common Name Guideline, the English names MUST BE USED HERE. As an English speaker who has lived in this province my entire life, I can assure you no English speaking person refers to those parts of the city by their French descriptors, not in the past or present. They are, quite simply: Montreal West, Montreal East, Montreal North and Montreal South. Furthermore, consult any LOCAL English media source such as newspapers, magazines, books, radio or television, they all refer to those parts of the island as west, east, north and south (see the example links). There is no excuse for not moving these articles, unless Wikipedia wishes to serve as an extension of Quebec's discriminatory move of the past 40 years, to systematically remove all traces of the English language from the province. Relisted. BDD (talk) 17:50, 4 December 2013 (UTC) Apple2gs (talk) 23:43, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Montréal-Nord → Montreal North
 * Montréal-Sud → Montreal South
 * Montréal-Est → Montreal East
 * Oppose per previous RM and due to nom's comment "There is no excuse for not moving these articles, unless Wikipedia wishes to serve as an extension of Quebec's discriminatory move of the past 40 years, to systematically remove all traces of the English language from the province." WP:SOAPBOX. I see "of Montréal-Nord" 4,390 GB results vs "of Montreal North", but the sources using the local borough name seem to be slightly higher quality. Also WP:FRMOS and related French Canadian precedents. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:05, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * comment (leaning towards oppose) - There is a reason why we're using the English spelling of Montreal on Wikipedia. Google Books has over 34 million results for "Montreal" and less than 5 million for "Montréal". This does not seem to be the case for its districts: Encyclopædia Britannica Merriam-Webster's Geographical Dictionary  and Penguin Books  prefer the French name.
 * And just an advice, please refrain from making POV statements on Wikipedia (e.g. "Quebec's discriminatory move [...] to systematically remove all traces of the English language from the province"). It is only going to hurt you. Whether Quebec is discriminatory or not has nothing to do with the English name of Montreal's districts. -- Ե րևանցի talk  01:16, 26 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree that Montréal-Nord, Montréal-Est and Montreal West are the more common usages.
 * Montreal South seems to be more common than Montréal-Sud in English. That municipality disappeared in 1961 and the name seems to have fallen out of use thereafter. (On the other hand, sometimes the name of a municipality annexed to a larger city is preserved as the name of a neighbourhood in the new city: Notre-Dame-de-Grâce, for example.) Here is an example of the English name used in an article: http://montrealmosaic.com/article/remembering-town-montreal-south During the time that the municipality existed, both English and French versions of its name were official. See Bill 90. An Act to amend the charter of the town of Montreal-South So since the history of Montreal South basically ends in 1961, I think it would be legitimate to move the article to the English name, but keeping the French name would maintain consistency with other South Shore municipalities.  Eastmain (talk • contribs)  02:41, 26 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Support all as per WP:UE Red Slash 03:53, 4 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - I'm sorry, but I wrote a factual statement about Quebec law, and it is not POV (merely pure and simple fact) that the unrestricted use or public display of the English language is illegal in the province of Quebec (see: Bill 101, Bill 178, Bill 22 or the proposed Bill 14 and Bill 60). Perhaps it's POV calling these so-called laws, or their intended purpose and ultimate goal, "discriminatory"? But let's not even go there. The reason I brought it up is because, honestly, I AM seeing editors attempting to apply these localized Quebec "laws" to Wikipedia, and these specific articles are another case in point. I cannot see any other reason to have their article titles remain as-is, except to extend Quebec law here. Here again are the reasons these articles need to be moved: 1) Common Name Guideline. LOCAL English newspapers, magazines, radio and television refer to these ares as Montreal West, Montreal North, Montreal East and Montreal South. I have cited examples from different media sources to back this up. 2) Wikipedia is an ENGLISH encyclopedia. If something has both an official English name and French name, the English name shall prevail. Unlike say, "Lafleur Restaurant" or "La Belle Province Restaurant". In such cases I would object someone translating and moving the article titles to "The Flower Restaurant" and "The Beautiful Province Restaurant" (these French names are the common names, therefore the French name shall prevail). 3) If this move does not pass, it is hypocritical that "Montreal West" remain as is and not moved to "Montréal Ouest". It sets a precedent that Wikipedia rules can arbitrarily ignored, even after it's been brought to the attention of others and a formal request is made follow them.--Apple2gs (talk) 08:19, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Vote struck per instructions at WP:RMCM. --BDD (talk) 20:01, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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