Talk:Montreal-style bagel/Archives/2014

cheese bagel
Does anybody know where I can find a description of a cheese bagel to show people who have never seen or had one? I was trying to explain to some people that what the Bagel Factory here in the UK calls a cheese bagel is a sorry joke, but I can't find a description of a real one any where. Even Google Images of "cheese bagel" shows only normal bagels!

Er... what is a cheese bagel? BorisAnthony 06:05, 15 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I believe that these are an exclusively Montreal delicacy. Having grown up in Greater New York City's large Jewish community, I never encountered a 'cheese bagel' until I had one in Montreal.  I had one this weekend on a visit, and I would classify it as closer to a blintz than to a bagel.  It's shaped like a bagel and it's a bit heavier than a blintz, but it's flavored and formed more like a blintz. Mark Asread (talk) 10:59, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

There is a picture of a cheese bagel at: http://theketchupkid.blogspot.com/2006/04/dads-bagels.html

Anyone know what the web site is for REAL Bagel? PaulSchreiber 07:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

New York bagel
You know, this article could do with complementary New York-style bagel article...

Wood-fired oven
"the Montreal bagel ... is always baked in a wood-fired oven." That's not really true. The Faubourg Ste-Catherine bagel shop makes what are indisputably Montreal-style bagels in a gas-fired oven. This may or may not be considered sacrilege, but that's beside the point. So, barring any objections, I'm going to take that bit out. --Nephtes 13:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Arguing against the general rule by reference to a single instance is a logical fallacy referred to as a hasty generalization. Your assertion is so illogical and muddled that it amounts to an instance of WP:Vandalism.

NPOV
I don't know enough about Montreal bagels to do anything myself, but I don't think the article can stay as is. I say this as a Canadian and a New Yorker. Dkatzism 21:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The Montreal bagel is sweeter and chewier than the New York bagel. If you sample it, you may prefer it to the New York bagel which tastes more like a bread roll with a hole in it (in comparison, at least). My objection to the article, in its current form, is that it doesn't describe the Jewish origin of bagels. It's curious that the Montreal and New York Jewish communities have many connections, especially among Torah observant Jews, but that the bagels are so dissimmilar. The problem here is not NPOV but missing content. Perhaps it should be merged? In any case, I'm removing the NPOV tag.


 * My objection to this remains... "There is a popular rivalry between supporters of the Montreal and New York style bagels, however, in recent years the Montreal bagel has established dominance over the New York variety." Dkatzism 20:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with your objection; and I have removed the assertion you refer to. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 02:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC).

promotion of specific bakeries
I have reverted the latest additions by Lance6968 because they were promoting specific commercial establishments, which is not appropriate. Also, there were some factual inaccuracies in his version; the fact that a product is not certified kosher does not mean that it is not kosher. Many restaurants that cannot afford the high certification fees will still serve kosher food, sometimes signalling this by symbols such as a star of David in their window. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.30.202.19 (talk) 21:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC).


 * I don't believe it was the promotion of a specific bakery per se; but rather, a kosher bakery that makes 'Montreal-style' bagels. The very uniqueness of a food, developed by Montreal Jews, that is, after many years, being marketed to the Jewish community in Montreal, is certainly encyclopedic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.211.195.38 (talk • contribs)

132.211.195.38's edit summary
As 132.211.195.38 has chosen to comment on one of my edits in an unrelated edit summary, I think it only appropriate that I respond here. 132.211.195.38 writes "Reference is appropriate; evidently, Victoria doesn't understand the details", which I can only assume to be a reference to an edit I made five days ago. Anyone caring to investigate will find that the reference followed the following statement: "Some of the traditional Montreal bagel bakeries are not certified kosher". However, the source in question makes no such assertion - in fact, bagel bakeries, whether in Montreal or elsewhere, are not mentioned. Personally, I have a feeling that the statement is correct, but have been unable to find a verifable source. I'm hoping someone else has better luck. Victoriagirl 18:09, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The assertion:

"'Some of the traditional Montreal bagel bakeries are not certified kosher'. However, the source in question makes no such assertion - in fact, bagel bakeries, whether in Montreal or elsewhere, are not mentioned."

is false, check the Web site for yourself for a complete list of kosher certified companies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.211.195.38 (talk • contribs)


 * Please sign your comments. While this particular page from the website you just listed provides an indirect reference (through absence from this supposedly complete list) as to the fact that some Montreal bagel shops are not kosher, it is not the same page as originally linked (the reference should point directly to the page with the info of interest). Second, because it does not explicitely states the non-kosherness of, say, Fairmount or St-Viateur bagels, it's an inappropriate cite to support the statement. You have to look for a needle missing from a haystack.--Boffob 22:45, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Your ignorance of this matter is clear. Only businesses certified kosher are on the list. The two bakeries that you list are clearly not on the list. It's really not that complex. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.211.195.38 (talk • contribs)


 * A the risk of repeating myself, I will point out in my defense that the link provided made no mention of the bagels, bagel bakeries or Montreal. Assuming good faith, I did go hunt around the website, but could find no information supportiing the statement: "Some of the traditional Montreal bagel bakeries are not certified kosher." That said, unless i misunderstand, it would appear that the most recent link provided supports the assertion. I suggest replacing the statement with: "Though they may be kosher in practice, some of the traditional Montreal bagel bakeries are not certified as such by the Jewish Community Council of Montreal."


 * To return to the topic of good faith, I will ask 132.211.195.38 to withdraw his/her edit summary: "Victoria is editing according to her bias; not the facts". I will also recommend that he/she read Wikipedia's policy concerning civility. Victoriagirl 23:25, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I still have issues with the fact that it's a list of kosher businesses, and it provides no explicit reference on non-kosher businesses. Someone with no knowledge of bagel bakeries in Montreal would find no information to support the statement that some bakeries are not kosher, because the only bagel bakeries listed on the page are kosher. As such, it's an incomplete reference for the statement.--Boffob 00:11, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I see your point. My solution won't work. Victoriagirl 03:22, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

An argument from ignorance is obviously not persuasive; for greater certainty, I'll repeat what I had written previously, if a business is not certified kosher by the Vaad Hair, (pronounced 'Vah-ad Ha-ear'), then it is not kosher, no 'if's 'and's or 'but's; again it is really not that complex. So the statement: "Though they may be kosher in practice, some of the traditional Montreal bagel bakeries are not certified as such by the Jewish Community Council of Montreal" is factually false and misleading. The food produced is either kosher or it is not; if food is prepared without Rabbinical supervision, it is not considered kosher by observant Jews; i.e., the food is presumed to fail to adhere to the requirements set out in the Bible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.211.195.38 (talk • contribs)


 * I admit to having a limited understanding of this issue, drawn largely from websites such as Tracey Rich's Judaism 101 in which she writes that food can be kosher without Rabbinical supervision. I look forward to learning more about this issue.


 * 132.211.195.38, I expect to be treated with respect similar to that I have displayed, and again ask you to withdraw your edit summary. Victoriagirl 16:12, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * To anonynous user: That's not the point. The point is that if one made a claim saying "Some companies sell computers for $100 or less" then provided, as reference the "complete list of companies that sell computers for more than $100", then that list would not constitute evidence for the original claim. None of the companies listed fit the original claim. To make it work requires prior knowledge of companies that sell computers which do not appear on the given list, something that is not given. So, for the article, either find a reference that explicitly identifies at least one Montreal bagel bakery as non-kosher or rephrase the original statement to say that some bakeries are kosher (which may disrupt the flow of the article, because it goes at length to establish the jewish origin of bagels).--Boffob 16:14, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Your failure to capitalize "Jewish" suggests bias; your questioning "the jewish (sic) origin of bagels," however, confirms prejudice and antisemitism. Logically, if you are not an antisemite, than you are displaying extraordinay ignorance of the subject matter of this article; and, accordingly, you should refrain from further edits thereof. Do you also question whether the earth is round? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.211.195.38 (talk • contribs)

On what is or is not kosher - food is kosher if it is in accordance with jewish dietary laws. Vaad Hair inspects food establishments to see if they comply with these laws and charges the business a fee for doing so. They are not the only organization that does so, and often the sephardic and askenazic jewish communities, who have slightly different interpretations of the laws, will have separate inspectors. Anyone can take on the business of kosher certification and put his seal of approval on the food; it is simply a matter of whether other people in the community respect his ability to do so. There is no magic to the inspection that makes something kosher; it is simply a matter of having the process checked by someone who, because of his position in the community, is trusted to be able to make that kind of determination. If Vaad Hair makes a mistake and puts its seal of approval on something that was not kosher, it is still unkosher. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.30.202.21 (talk) 15:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Marlene Bonneau citation
I've just finished reading Marlene Bonneau's "Getting Married in Montreal with Two Wedding Rings", which has been cited in this article. This citation, contributed by an anonymous user at the Toronto Public Library, concerns Jewish wedding ceremonies in Montreal. It is currently provided as a "Footnote" after the following: "The relatively recent establishment of a new bakery in the Town of Mount Royal has obtained kosher certification, perhaps reflecting a return to Orthodoxy among the Jews remaining in Montreal who have not left for other cities in North America and Israel; or else reflecting a trend to increasing strictness and formalism within the Orthodox community."

I recognize that Bonneau's article is provided as a footnote, and not as a source for the sentence which it follows (indeed there is no mention of bagels, a new bakery, the Town of Mount Royal, other North American cities, or Israel). In the interests of clarity, I've placed an "original research?" tag on the sentence quoted as there is no indication as to the source of the speculations it contains. Victoriagirl 23:15, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * There is no original research here, the sources are available; the constructive thing to do is to look for them. The assertion: "...or else reflecting a trend to increasing strictness and formalism within the Orthodox community," is nonsensical. To suggest that Jewish Orthodoxy has become more "strict" and "formal" is absurd; and displays a misunderstanding of Jewish Orthodoxy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.211.195.38 (talk • contribs)


 * With all due respect, 132.211.195.38, the sentence I quoted above is one that you rewrote. The misunderstanding of which you write is contained in a section of the sentence you chose not to change.


 * I'm afraid I've not been able to find references which might back up the sentence. That said, the burden of evidence does not lie with me. Victoriagirl 03:03, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

The Bonneau article demonstrates the proposition that the orthodox Jewish community in Montreal has adopteda stricter and more formalistic approach to Jewish tradition over the years, showing this by looking at the changes in wedding customs and ceremonies. It doesn't deal with the bagel-specific issues!

Removed unsourced statement, leaving it here in case it can be sourced
I just removed the following from the article:

"The bagel was introduced to Montreal by a baker named Engelman who arrived in the City from Russia in 1919; his descendants continue to make bagels today. " (template excluded to avoid placing talk page in categories)

I removed this since it seems to me unlikely that this can be sourced. Since it would be a great addition to the article if the introduction of bagels to Montreal could be credited and sourced, I'm going to leave this here, in case someone can find a reliable source to which this can be attributed. Nihiltres(t.c.s) 19:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The source was the article on bagels in French Wikipedia; unfortunately, there is no specific footnote or reference in that article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.30.202.18 (talk) 19:01, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Bagel sometimes pronounced with soft g?
I am removing the following statement for being extremely incorrect: "and bagels, sometimes pronounced with a soft "g" in French, have become a part of the broader Montreal culture." Although they are sometimes pronounced with a soft g in french, it is always as a joke...never as an actual way of pronouncing it. Lg1223 01:35, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging
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Wording too strong?
Not sure about this line: "this style of bagel is almost completely unknown in the northeastern U.S. despite its proximity to Montreal.."

Does a Montreal-style bagel producing outfit in Burlington, VT (Myer's Bagels, less than 2 hrs from Montreal) undermine or support such a claim. 'Almost completely unknown' is pretty strong... Just a thought.--Jonashart (talk) 03:32, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Montreal Bagels in Burlington VT
It's been suggested (by the person @ 98.113.62.179) that this doesn't belong in the History section. I'm not so sure this is so, and I've reverted his deletion of my addition. I'm pretty much a newbie editor, so perhaps other Wikipedia editors have an idea of how we should handle this: remove the reference to the Montreal Bagel's rarity in the Northeastern US? Remove the reference to the specific bakery (which could be construed as advertising-like)? Add a section on "Geographic Spread" (this sounds silly and trivial, though). Let's brainstorm this. --Mark Asread 13:51, 8 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mark Asread


 * Hi Mark Asread: referring to Wikipedia's Core Content Policies, editorial changes that you'd like to make to an article need to be verifiable in a reliable source. Unfortunately the Yelp reference added to Myer's Bakery is a self-published item on a public review website, one step up from verbal anecdote.  That's not to say that the Myer's Bakery isn't a notable Montreal-style bakery and that their bagels aren't becoming more popular in the U.S. NE ––its just that it hasn't been established in a reliable source.  If you can find something referring to Myer's in a book on cuisine or in the New York Times, (or similar), then its a slam-dunk case for inclusion, understanding that other WP policies such as Neutral Point Of View still have to be followed.  Even articles in community newspapers would  likely qualify, depending on the the quality of the article and its context.  Best: HarryZilber (talk) 14:42, 8 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks Harryzilber. Makes sense.  I've got a citation from a local Burlington weekly (a reliable source), though the Myers reference is buried pretty far down the page.  (Next I have to learn how to spell relevant). --Mark Asread 10:52, 9 June 2011 (UTC)