Talk:Mormonism and polygamy

New page for anti-polygamy legislation?
Hello, fellow Wikipedians! I have been editing on this page for a few months and I’ve also been compiling sources and information on federal anti-polygamy legislation. Since there is more information specific to anti-polygamy legislation in the United States, I have been thinking about making a new page for it. This page would be a spin-off page and would include the legal and historical background, the actors involved in creating the legislation, Mormon and non-Mormon response to the legislation, if the legislation passed, and the effects of the legislation. I have been drafting the page in my sandbox for the past month and have a lot of academic sources that provide more information. If I create this page, I would remove the subsection entitled “US government actions against polygamy” and put it on the new page. I would leave a short blurb of the legislation and a link to the new page on the Mormonism and polygamy page. I would love to hear your thoughts on this idea. Please let me know what you think! NatalieEmma.BYU (talk) 20:31, 15 June 2023 (UTC)


 * I think that sounds like a great idea. I've seen antipolygamy treated as a discrete subject in an encyclopedia before (e. g. Ray Jay Davis, "Antipolygamy Legislation," Encyclopedia of Mormonism), so I think that could be a justifiable subject, especially since there's significant scholarly literature on the topic. I would also point out that there is a "Legality of Polygamy in the United States" page, with some references to newspaper articles and some references directly to state statutes. That one seems more to do with state level laws. Is the page you're thinking of going to be focused on federal law?
 * Another thing to keep in mind is that there are or could be Wikipedia pages for each individual bill or law, so it might be good to think about the justification for having a consolidated page for numerous laws. I think it is justifiable, since it's a subject deemed fit of itself in an existing academic encyclopedia. Having the various laws in one place could also be useful for conveying to the reader how the laws work together and built on each other.
 * Will the 'response' portion of subsections include judicial suits and rulings? For example, Reynolds v. United States deciding that the Morrill Act didn't violate the First Amendment, or how Cleveland v. United States (1946) ruled that the Mann Act (1910) ban on interstate trafficking for "any immoral purpose" applied to polygamy as well? Hydrangeans (she/her &#124; talk &#124; edits) 20:26, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

[ User:Hydrangeans ] Thanks so much for replying. In the draft that I have been working on, I have only been focusing on federal laws so far. However, once I get the page finished and published, I would certainly be interested in adding information about state legislations. In answer to your question about the "response" section, I was planning on including law suits and their effect as well as any public response from others (such as protests or petitions.) I'll keep working on the draft! Thanks for your input! NatalieEmma.BYU (talk) 21:33, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Short description
I changed the short description from “Formerly allowed practice” to “History of polygamy among Mormon sects.” While the term ‘Mormon’ most frequently applies to members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it can broadly be applied to all faiths that either broke from that church, claim to originate with Joseph Smith, Jr., or use the Book of Mormon as sacred text. While the LDS Church has disallowed practice of polygamy, some smaller sects have not. As these are covered in the article, I find it more appropriate to just label it as a history of the practice rather than a formerly allowed practice. DJ Cane (talk) 15:54, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Increase in bachelorhood subsection warrants removal for lack of reliable secondary sources
Because removing a subsection, albeit a brief one and for reasons that feel well warranted, seems a little on the bold side, I have included an explanation on the talk page for my recent revision to the page.

In the "Increase in bachelorhood subsection", the only secondary source supporting the claim that there was a rise in bachelorhood among nineteenth-century Latter-day Saints is the reference to Richard Abanes's One Nation Under Gods. Although the subsection draws its quote of Heber C. Kimball from Stanley P. Hirshon's Lion of the Lord (1969), the book does not extend the quotation into a conclusion about bachelorhood or bachelorettehood (is that a word?) in nineteenth-century Mormon country. Instead, Hirshon takes the quote as evidence about Kimball's personality, claiming "Kimball always kept an eye out for romance". The subsection also includes a reference to the Encylcopedia of Mormonism, but following up that reference does not substantiate the claim about an increase in bachelorhood either. (There's also, I suppose, the footnote to FAIR, formerly FairMormon, but that's just the page fighting with itself and hedging claims instead of seeking scholarly consensus.)

As for Abanes's One Nation Under Gods, I am not convinced the book should be considered reliable for a Wikipedia page. The book is a work of pop expose rather than scholarship, as attested by the scholarly Journal of American History. JAH's review of the book was almost entirely negative, concluding the book was written not as part of the late-twentieth- and early-twenty-first-century movement toward scholarly Mormon history, but instead "revert[ed] to the negative type" of polemical expose popular in the 1800s.

All other references in the subsection are to primary sources, such as a nineteenth-century newspapers or the Journal of Discourses. I would add that quotations from the Journal of Discourses cannot be taken for granted because George D. Watts, the compiler, often made major changes to speeches in language, tone, style, and even content between transcription and publication ("The Prophets Have Spoken, but What Did They Say?" 2015). Just because it was written in the Journal of Discourses does not guarantee the person attributed actually said it that way, or at all.

With no reliable secondary sources in the subsection, its claim has no reliable warrants that meet Wikipedia standards. and then does not have place on the page. Hydrangeans (she/her &#124; talk &#124; edits) 05:40, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

removed quote from Brigham Young reported by Wilford Woodruff
We were able to verify the quote about Brigham Young refusing to marry two young girls ages 12 and 13 to a man (you can see the page in the Wilford Woodruff diaries via the Wilford Woodruff papers here). If anyone knows of secondary sources that discuss the quote, we can include a summary of those findings on the page. We removed the quote because the commentary on it is original research, and including the quote without commentary seems unhelpful and unencyclopedic. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 22:00, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Polygamy in Salt Lake City
Here's a newly added comment I am moving from the archives into a new discussion thread. Binksternet (talk) 22:05, 17 June 2023 (UTC) "Hi Binksternet and bytebear! I was reading through the talk page and saw your comments. I found some recently published articles about polygamy in Utah (particularly the legal battles regarding polygamy.) I will be happy to add these in if wanted. Do you have a suggestion of where on the page this would fit best? Cheers! NatalieEmma.BYU (talk) 21:50, 17 June 2023 (UTC)"
 * , I would be interested to see your sources. If your material merits it, you could create a new section titled "Current status" or similar, describing modern cases of polygamy. Binksternet (talk) 22:05, 17 June 2023 (UTC)