Talk:Motorcycle hooliganism

Newspaper article citation that may prove useful for this page in progress.
Here is an additional citation useful for the article on motorcycle hooliganism, citng to the Charlottesville Va. newspaper about speeding (at double the speed limit). The citation is an example of how excessive speeding can be charged as reckless driving. http://www.dailyprogress.com/news/local/north-garden-motorcyclist-faces-multiple-charges/article_05a08876-7fe2-11e3-8c11-0019bb30f31a.html?mode=jqm. ElijahBosley (talk &#9758;)  15:55, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Defining hooliganism
The initial paragraph defines hooliganism as occurring "often in groups." Football hooliganism (soccer in the US) involves a group of fans rather than an individual fan misbehaving. I ask because an individual speeding on a motorcycle as per the cite above would then not be hooliganism. It would only be hooliganism if it involves a group. So, I think the introductory paragraph needs to cite a source that tells us whether or not hooliganism requires a group. ElijahBosley (talk &#9758;)  14:57, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
 * That's why it says "often in groups", not "always in groups". It's not a well-defined thing: It's simply the result of a few observers noting that there is a divide, with the 1%ers being older, riding Harleys, and committing crimes that rarely have anything to do with motorcycles in clubs with strict membership rules and well-defined territory, vs a younger, urban, racially diverse demograpic that rarely commits crimes that are not on the bike, and without a rigid club membership roster, or club charter, or territory. There's no way to have an article on this subject and to insist that it "requires" anything. The subject is defined in broad strokes. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:57, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the response. My question was more directed to sources defining motorcycle hooliganism: when the words "motorcycle hooliganism" come up in news reports or books or magazines, are they invariably speaking of a group of bikers? Or has hooliganism been used to refer to say, one juvenile delinquent flipping the bird to a motorist as he speeds by? Or more seriously, does "hooligans" include the motorbike mounted assassins who kill Iranian nuclear scientists?  Does any crime qualify, or only group/biker gang crimes?  The news article cited above talks of a guy speeding at twice the speed limit,  faster than the cops could keep up--but it was just one guy.  The news report does not actually use the word hooligan, so I was not sure this sort of thing was appropriate to cite in this article. ElijahBosley  (talk &#9758;)  19:58, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Funny you should mention motorcycle assassination: I've had that as a possible new article at WikiProject Motorcycling/to do for a while. There are many examples; see the links on the To Do list. I think it's really a separate subject to hooliganism. Terrorists/insurgents/partisans who use motorcycles to throw grenades from or shoot a gun don't overlap at all with the guys who perpetrated the Alexian Lien beating. The word "hooliganism" is used here merely as a general descriptor for the class of behaviors covered. You often hear the phrase "hooligan bike" or "hoon bike" or "hooning" to describe street stunting-related activities, which is the main justification for using that word here. Other examples: . Currently we have the article Hoon, which discusses car hooliganism, but not motorcycles.I don't know for certain if "Motorcycle hooliganism" is the best possible title, but it's good enough for now. We can always change it later if something better is suggested. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 23:11, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alexian Lien beating
See Articles for deletion/Alexian Lien beating --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:08, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Research
References not yet used in article

Illegal racing

 * Street dangers aren't confined to the dark of night.(illegal street racing)(Column).Courtland Milloy. The Washington Post 0.0 (Feb 18, 2008): pB01.
 * Road racing 'more fun' than a proper circuit.Asia Africa Intelligence Wire (Sept 26, 2005)(768 words)
 * Young Thai cyclists says government-organized run can't match thrill of street racing.The America's Intelligence Wire (Sept 25, 2005)(374 words)
 * Street-legal; A pro motorcycle dragster takes Project Direction to the streets to save the lives of young people.(FLORIDA WEST).Sarasota Herald Tribune (August 29, 2005): pE1. (844 words)
 * 64 illegal street racers arrested.Asia Africa Intelligence Wire (August 8, 2005)(127 words)
 * Conspicuous absence of police at illegal races.(Brief Article).New Straits Times (May 30, 2001): pNSTP16954839. (296 words) http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=motorcycle+illegal&btnG=Search+Archives&ned=us&hl=en&scoring=a* COLUMN ONE; It's the roar of rebellion; Illegal motorcycle racing is...Pay-Per-View - Los Angeles Times - ProQuest Archiver - Nov 6, 2006[HOME EDITION]. THE traffic light lingered red as the motorcycles congregated at a crowded downtown intersection -- engines revving, drivers fidgeting. ...
 * Youths Jailed For Illegal Motorcycle Racing .New Straits Times - Google News Archive - May 4, 1999Mon. Four youths were today sen tenced to three months months' jail and had their driving licences suspended for a year by a Shah Alam magistrate's court ...
 * Cops want m-cycles used in illegal racing confiscatedMalaysia Star - May 10, 2005KEPALA BATAS: Police have proposed that motorcycles used in illegal racing be confiscated to curb the menace among youngsters. ...
 * MOTORCYCLE RACING Team Honda Racers Admit to Illegal Motorcycle …Pay-Per-View - Los Angeles Times - ProQuest Archiver - Jun 12, 1987[Valley Edition]. Ted Hunnicutt Jr. of Thousand Oaks learned something Sunday. In his first SCORE Baja 500 off-road motorcycle race, Hunnicutt learned about ...
 * Student Among Three Illegal Motorcycle Racers DetainedBernama - Bernama - Mar 23, 2008SHAH ALAM, March 23 (Bernama) -- Three youths including a student were detained for riding their motorcycles in a reckless manner in a police operation at ...
 * Illegal racers ram into two copsMalaysia Star - Feb 9, 2008Ipoh deputy OCPD Supt Ibrahim Abu Bakar said two of the illegal racers hit the two constables with their motorcycles while the third man rammed into the ...All 2 related -
 * Ops against illegal motorcycle racing in JBMalaysia Star - Apr 20, 2009JOHOR BARU: Police issued 501 summonses and impounded 45 motorcycles for illegal racing during a three-day operation here recently. ...Related web pagesMat Rempit May Lose Motorcycles Under Proposed Legal ProvisionBernama - Oct 9, 2006"We have carried out various operations against illegal motorcycle racers, but they are back on the road again after paying their summonses and getting back ...All 4 related - Related web pagesKedah police zero in on biker thugsMalaysia Star - Jan 3, 2004ALOR STAR: Police have identified the group of illegal motorcycle racers who allegedly assaulted Kedah Umno secretary Datuk Abdul Rahman Ariffin early on ... * Commission Listens To Residents: Won't Let Motorcycle Track Reopen .Deseret News - Google News Archive - Feb 7, 1988Weaver said there is a need for a motorcycle and facility and that illegal riders are creating problems on city streets and on the foothills Illegal
 * Six boys fool parents to go for illegal racingMalaysia Star - Jan 31, 2003In a separate case, DSP Zahari said three teenage boys were caught for illegal motorcycle racing in Jalan Alor Merah here about midnight last Thursday. ...
 * The 'dangers' of motorcyclingTimes Online - May 13, 2005The sad truth is that nobody knows the true causes of many motorcycle accidents. Also, nobody in government seems to be doing much to combat the illegal use.
 * http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009775761_webdeaths30.html?syndication=rss
 * http://www.komonews.com/news/local/56220957.html
 * Title:Malaysian PM attempts to make allies of motorcycle 'hell riders'. Source:South China Morning Post (August 29, 2006)COPYRIGHT 2006 South China Morning Post Publishers Ltd. (From South China Morning Post) Byline: Baradan Kuppusamyin Kuala Lumpur "By day, Jojo Attan, 17, is a dispatch rider for a legal firm. By night, he and his 110cc Yamaha motorcycle join the ranks of Kuala Lumpur's street-racing "hell riders". Malaysian police estimate that 150,000 hell riders or mat rempit cruise the streets of the capital and major cities every night. They race for money or pleasure - and cause accidents, death and mayhem along the way.
 * Title:Malaysian PM attempts to make allies of motorcycle 'hell riders'. Source:South China Morning Post (August 29, 2006)COPYRIGHT 2006 South China Morning Post Publishers Ltd. (From South China Morning Post) Byline: Baradan Kuppusamyin Kuala Lumpur "By day, Jojo Attan, 17, is a dispatch rider for a legal firm. By night, he and his 110cc Yamaha motorcycle join the ranks of Kuala Lumpur's street-racing "hell riders". Malaysian police estimate that 150,000 hell riders or mat rempit cruise the streets of the capital and major cities every night. They race for money or pleasure - and cause accidents, death and mayhem along the way.

Unsorted and uncited

 * Framing the motorcycle outlaw http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=VRkeUMR4xE8C&oi=fnd&pg=PA185&dq=motorcycle+hooligan&ots=YRumBwoiip&sig=5YRoNrnrPVRF6_QBb47Ij1Vhdz0
 * Ebert, Guido. "Team Sheriff rides Honda." Powersports Business 9.12 (Sept 4, 2006): 26(2). General OneFile. Gale. Seattle Public Library. 11 July 2009 "American Honda donated two Honda CBR600RR motorcycles to L. A. County based Team Sheriff Racing, Inc., a unique law enforcement outreach program designed to provide youth and adult motorcycle riders with alternatives to unlicensed motorcycle operation and illegal street racing. "
 * Slate drawing demarcation between outlaw motorcycle gangs and Hollywood Stuntz -- "sophisticated organizations who utilize their affiliation with a motorcycle club as a conduit for criminal activity" vs an informal "rally" "a forum for themselves and other stunt riders in the New York area (and sometimes riders from out of state) to show off the most insane stunts the thousands of bystanders have ever seen."
 * Slate drawing demarcation between outlaw motorcycle gangs and Hollywood Stuntz -- "sophisticated organizations who utilize their affiliation with a motorcycle club as a conduit for criminal activity" vs an informal "rally" "a forum for themselves and other stunt riders in the New York area (and sometimes riders from out of state) to show off the most insane stunts the thousands of bystanders have ever seen."
 * Slate drawing demarcation between outlaw motorcycle gangs and Hollywood Stuntz -- "sophisticated organizations who utilize their affiliation with a motorcycle club as a conduit for criminal activity" vs an informal "rally" "a forum for themselves and other stunt riders in the New York area (and sometimes riders from out of state) to show off the most insane stunts the thousands of bystanders have ever seen."


 * Where the rubber leaves the road, Dallas Observer, 2003. Defines demographics and practices of Texas stunters and "hooligans".
 * motorcycle.com video review of Underground Riders and others, calling them "hooligan videos...moto-pornography that simultaneously exploits and exalts pimple faced tyros with more balls than brains doing things that are illegal in all 50 states".

Packer
The Packer reference does not seem to mention hooligans, or hooliganism anywhere.

What is its relevance and all this talk of gangs about?

Thank you --Salty Batter (talk) 20:22, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Scroll up to the top of this talk page and read. If you'd like to suggest a different title for this article, please feel free. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:09, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Is it really worthy of an article in an encyclopedia about it? I mean, why not have a topic, "Shit people do". It would make just about as much sense.

It should probably just be a paragraph on the topic on Hooliganism. That would be my recommendation.

What I reject most strongly about it is the impression it gives that hooligans are some kind defined group or lifestyle rather than just individuals doing stupid stuff, much in the same way as you are stereotyping groups of motorcyclists as "gangs". For example, I have no idea about who these Remit guys are but I will guarantee you they are just kids out to have fun and riding around on their scooters like kids do.

Listen, try being a little consistent. You've collectively just gotten off telling me that references are not required in the opening summaries and now you are reverting my work to replace one.

Please find someone else to fixate about. It is starting to look like you are just out to provoke conflict for some reason. What is it? --Salty Batter (talk) 17:22, 25 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Where exactly did I tell you citations are not required in the lead? The article says precisely the opposite of what you are alleging. It says traditional motorccyle gangs are tightly organized, while the hooligan trend concerns loosely organized groups. If you think this article shouldn't exist, then you should nominate it for deletion. If you think someone is treating you unfairly you should register your complaints in an appropraite forum. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 17:53, 25 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I told Salty references are not required in plot sections, which is true. Perhaps that's the source of the confusion. Marteau (talk) 09:42, 26 January 2015 (UTC)