Talk:Murder–suicide

Columbine...
Are you sure the Columbine incident should be listed as an example for suicide to avoid imprisonment? From various documentaries that I've seen, it would appear that suicide and murder were both pre-planned objectives for the two students that committed the act. Also, even if that wasn't the case, it hasn't been proven that the boys killed themselves as a means to avoid dealing with the law. Just being nitpicky, that's all.


 * The Columbine shooting was planned for at least a year in advance and it was always intended to be a suicide mission, according to the shooters writings. They wanted to die and go out in a "big" way, not to avoid punsihment. It should be removed.--Mimbster 19:53, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I removed the paragraph that had both the Columbine and Virginia Tech shootings. They are irrelevent to the article. Slater79 02:40, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

The domestic abuse section duplicates the more general "suicide after murder as a form of self punishment or guilt" and "suicide after murder to escape punishment". Further, the "suicide to facilitate murder, as in suicide bombing" duplicates "suicide in a group setting that necessarily causes the death of others, such as an airplane or train bombing." I recommend making the list more succint.Handment 17:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I am removing the sublist of "Having a combined objective of suicide and murder." This is not a form of murder-suicide, but as the point clearly states, an "objective" of a form, making it inappropriate for the list. In particular, the point talking about "escaping the world seen as a terrible place" is not provable and seems a bit biased. I am removing that as well. I will retain the joint suicide point since this is yet another form of suicide. I am also removing the "due to guilt" clause in the self-punishment point. This motivation would be quite difficult to prove. It might be so that this is a natural emotion to us, but we cannot include original research. Teimu.tm (talk) 13:17, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As it is now, i think that "Murder which entails suicide, such as driving a car of four off a bridge" is a duplication of "Suicide to facilitate murder, as in suicide bombing"--Azarien (talk) 14:38, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, I merged those. KingSupernova (talk) 03:58, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Examples
I've removed the examples from the article. None of them are sourced, and most of them are making unfounded speculations about the state of mind of the people involved. --Carnildo 18:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

John Bodkin Adams?
Dr Adams encouraged his patient Gertrude Hullett to leave him money in her will then got her to take an overdose, and then failed to provide proper treatment to save her. Would he not be relevant here? And under what heading?Malick78 12:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Unless he killed himself afterwards, it's a regular murder, and doesn't go here. --Carnildo 18:24, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Spelling
Shouldn't this be spelled with a hyphen instead of an en-dash?! --62.214.8.82 (talk) 15:09, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Some style guides would agree with you (e.g., Chicago), but according to MOS, specifically the subparagraph "In compounds when the connection might otherwise be expressed with to, versus, and, or between" under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Dashes, the en dash is correct here. Holy (talk) 16:22, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Unclear sentence
"While much study has been done on homicides which are later followed by suicide, the reverse does not appear to be very well studied." Well, uh... I don't think it's often that someone commits suicide and then proceeds to kill people (unless we're talking about ghost movies...) What is this sentence referring to? JudgeDeadd (talk) 17:55, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Murder
What about situations where the person is about to kill themself, but want to take people they hate with them? So many situations and intentions are listed, but it doesn't cover this. --2.245.137.221 (talk) 16:32, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Murder-suicide examples
I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure what you have that I have quoted below in regard to "intent of preventing future pain and suffering of others including family members" is at least complete conjecture, and worse gross displacement of motive or projection of the intent to prevent one's own pain and suffering on others. This is as grotesque as suggesting the desire for a parent facing terminal illness to see their young children's lives euthanized first for the same intent, is a plausible under the dire circumstances of a worrying parent, if unacceptable, desire. I also wouldn't be the least bit surprised that any excuse of "intent of preventing future pain and suffering others" is in reality a selfish concern about the welfare of one's children in the hands of others following their death. This is at best a highly irrational and mentally unstable "intent". There may be VERY FEW cases where a parent's suicide may actually cause enough "pain and suffering" to appear to be a plausible "intent" to someone who is in a highly susceptible state leading to suicide -- as in a child who has severe health and/or mental issues under which no other surviving person or institution might help without avoiding great suffering to the child -- but the vast majority of these murder-suicides by family members, fathers usually, have consisted for the most part healthy children until they were murdered -- violently, in most cases and without sufficient regard for the victim's current pain and suffering -- by a parent that then kills themselves.

"Murder before suicide with the intent of preventing future pain and suffering of others including family members and oneself, such as a parent killing their children before ending their own life;"

What next, an example of assisted suicide that includes homocide of a perfectly healthy individual with no terminal illness, but with the intent of preventing suffering of others including oneself?

If you look at all your other murder-suicide examples, they all appear to be plausible without conjecture -- at least on motive if I'm not mistaken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.167.244.34 (talk) 01:55, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Threating a murder-suicide and military strategy ?
Relates to Mutual assured destruction. Nuclear strategy is very near to murder-suicide (at least the threat to commit one). Action pattern quite the same. One thing that differs, of course, it is no crime just because there is no justice authority above the perpetrators. And f*** (sorry) the law (haha) of armed conflict. --129.187.244.19 (talk) 11:08, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Dubious
Freudian theory? indicates that this needs a lot of references as it appears to be a lot of conjecture, repeated anecdotes and OR. Research ideation further indicates that some of the sections may not have much truth in it... and some may be worse. Victuallers (talk) 08:49, 14 April 2021 (UTC)