Talk:NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament

Erroneous Origin of Term "March Madness"
This article's information about the origin of the term "March madness" is erroneous. It was originally used beginning in 1931, in reference to Indiana high school basketball. This was discovered by the distinguished etymologist Barry Popik and is detailed at his barrypopik.com website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.36.7.85 (talk) 23:05, 5 February 2022 (UTC)


 * @128.36.7.85 At best that would be only a minor modification to the history of the term. Whatever use was made of "March Madness" in Indiana in the early 1930's obviously wasn't enough to prevent its use in Illinois starting in the late 1930's; my guess was it had faded away in Indiana before 1939. OTOH, Illinois' prior use of "March Madness" is acknowledged in the numerous court cases involving conflicting uses of the term; even though IHSA gave its share of the trademark registration to the NCAA years ago, it still controls the right to use "March Madness" for high school basketball tournaments apparently under license from the NCAA. RBBrittain (talk) 02:27, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Does SoFi Stadium qualify?
The article as presently written claims SoFi Stadium is one of the 11 stadiums that would qualify to host the Final Four under the previous criteria (no longer strictly followed but still apparently the basic rule). There is one problem with that, however: While SoFi does have a roof over the field, the sides of the stadium are open to the elements; thus it is NOT an indoor domed or retractable roof stadium like the others on this list. Wouldn't that disqualify SoFi from hosting the Final Four, or any NCAA tournament game for that matter? RBBrittain (talk) 02:17, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Defunct Mid-Major Conferences and the Metro, Great Midwest, and Southwest Conference
I'd like to ask why the Metro is not listed among the defunct mid-major conferences if the Southwest and Great Midwest are? All were considered major conferences at the time, but seeing as the Metro the other two are listed, the Metro should be, or the other two should be de-listed. Simply for the sake of consistency and keeping things simple and so as not to have to explain why the Southwest and Great Midwest are listed and the Metro is not.

Separately, if the Southwest is left in, SMU for example made a bunch of Sweet 16 appearances in the 50s and 60s, and even an Elite 8 in 1967 and a Final 4 in 1956, and I'm sure there are more examples like this in defunct conferences that no one except a total nerd and perfectionist like me would care about.

-Alex

Alexseidner0831 (talk) 00:29, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

How do you determine who is the home team and the away team
H 2600:1006:B046:C6F5:0:4A:1AF4:D301 (talk) 02:04, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Getting Article to GA Status
This article has long been overloaded with unnecessary things. As the main article about one of the most popular sporting events in the US, this really should be of higher quality. I did some editing of the technical description of the tournament and seed list several months ago, and now am wanting to start the discussion on broader changes that are needed. I'm a relatively new editor, so not sure exactly where to start but feel like the lead could be a good place to focus on to help determine what the rest of the article looks like.

Lead Improvements
Right now, it is a mess. Per MOS:INTRO the lead should summarize the event, which it does not do. The technical description of the tournament and seeding is too detailed and possibly even confusing to readers unfamiliar with the subject; this should be brief as there is a much more detailed description that is easier to understand in its own section. Several things are given undue weight (MOS:LEADREL), including putting the discussion of the wider cultural relevance in the second paragraph--and then the cultural relevance is mentioned again in the fourth paragraph with the TV broadcast. The COVID tournament get's its own paragraph at the bottom of the lead, which is definitely not relevant enough for a full paragraph anymore (and maybe not relevant for lead mention at all).

It would also be good to limit the listing of previous champions. While there are relatively few teams that have won two or more, the paragraph is too verbose listing them all. UCLA should obviously remain, but after that I'm not sure what route to go. I could see limiting it to the top five champions, limiting it to those with three or more titles, or listing the teams with the most championships, most final four appearances, most wins as a way to emphasize different ways to measure postseason success.

The tournament was created in 1939 by the National Association of Basketball Coaches, and was the idea of Ohio State coach Harold Olsen

Here is my proposed draft of a new lead:

The NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament, also known as NCAA March Madness is a single-elimination tournament played in the United States to determine the men's college basketball national champion of the Division I level in the National Collegiate Athletic Association. The tournament currently consists of 68 teams and was first conducted in 1939. Known for its upsets of favored teams, it has become one of the biggest annual sporting events in the US.

The tournament teams include champions from 32 Division I conferences and 36 teams which are awarded at-large berths. These "at-large" teams are chosen by an NCAA selection committee, then announced in a nationally televised event dubbed Selection Sunday. Teams are placed in four regions and given a seed between 1 and 16 within the region. The tournament consists of seven rounds and is conducted over three successive weeks. The first week narrows the field down to 16 teams, starting with eight teams competing in the First Four to advance to the main bracket. The second week consists of the Regional Semifinals & Finals, narrowing the field down to four teams. The final week is played at one site and known as the Final Four and a National Champion is crowned.

The current 68-team format was adopted in 2011, and has remained largely unchanged since 1985 when it expanded to 64 teams. Before then, the tournament sized varied from as little as 8 to as many as 53. The field was restricted to conference champions until at-large bids were extended in 1975 and teams were not fully seeded until 1979. In 2020, the tournament was cancelled for the first time due to the COVID-19 pandemic; in the subsequent season, the tournament was contested completely in the state of Indiana as a precaution.

All tournament games are broadcast by CBS, TBS, TNT, and truTV under the program name NCAA March Madness. With a contract through 2032, Paramount Global and Warner Bros. Discovery pay $891 million annually for the broadcast rights. The NCAA distributes revenue to participating teams based on how far they advance, which provides significant funding for college athletics. The tournament has become part of American popular culture through bracket contests that award money and prizes for correctly predicting the outcomes of the most games. It is estimated that tens of millions of Americans, including those who don't follow regular-season college basketball or sports in general, participate in a bracket contest each year.

37 different schools have won the tournament. UCLA has the most with 11 championships; their coach John Wooden has the most titles of any coach with 10. The University of Kentucky has eight titles, the University of North Carolina has six titles, and Duke University and Indiana University both have five titles, University of Connecticut and the University of Kansas both have four titles, and Villanova University has three national titles.

Ha2772a (talk) 21:55, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Article Structure
The article needs to be rearranged and focused. It's unclear why some content is in this very long article instead of being in other articles, and we definitely need a more robust history section that actually describes the history of the tournament and not just certain feats. As i look through the whole article it becomes much clearer that this is basically a bettor's guide to the tournament for bracket pools in many places.


 * 1) History
 * 2) 1939-1974: Competing with the NIT
 * 3) 1975-1984: At-Large Bids
 * 4) 1985-2000: 64 Team Field
 * 5) 2000-Present: Modern Tournament
 * 6) Tournament Format
 * 7) Qualifying
 * 8) Seeding
 * 9) Rounds
 * 10) Winners
 * 11) Television Coverage and Revenue
 * 12) Traditions and Awards
 * 13) Championship Traditions
 * 14) Final Four Awards
 * 15) Regional Awards
 * 16) Records
 * 17) Team records
 * 18) Tournament appearance streaks
 * 19) Most 1 Seeds
 * 20) Most games won
 * 21) Most Final Four & Championship Game appearances
 * 22) Successful Low-Seeded Teams
 * 23) Player records
 * 24) Coach Records
 * 25) Influence
 * 26) NBA Draft
 * 27) Popular Culture
 * 28) Venues

The statistics section is the biggest problem. Most of these stats are included in the NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament upsets and NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament records articles in a much more readable and better organized format. I suggest we include only the most important statistics, using mostly prose to write those subsections, and link out to those articles. For example, we only need to give a summary for the low-seeded teams. We give specific mention to UMBC, St. Peter's, Syracuse, Wichita State, Villanova, UConn, and the collection of 11 seeds to make the final four, since they have achieved the farthest advance for their seed lines. We can give general mention to the remaining upsets and teams, such as "Ten 15 seeds have beaten a two seed, and twenty 14 seeds have beaten a three seed in their first-round matchups." I think we axe the rest of the seed content, moving it to the respective articles they belong in. We can then add in individual performance records for players, and then simplify the coach records to just be the most important, like games won, championships, and final fours.

The Results by school & year should be its own article completely.

I think we should break up the tournament evolution section. The table of field size can go in the more robust history section, the seeding history should move to another article or its own article entirely. The other changes sections could all be summarized in the new history section, and they repeat a lot of content anyway that's already included in the format section.

The Venues section should give a summary about final four venues but link out to the full table. Some of the language from the current Evolution of the Tournament/Venues section can be used but a lot of it's dated now that the dome policy is no longer in effect. There's no reason to have it here, and if we want a table with venues for each year we should just make it a table of championship game results with winners. That's what it's functioning as right now.

I've also made some suggestions for history subsections, with four eras to split it into.

The Popular Culture section can be changed to Influence to include the NBA Draft section. While the pop culture section probably needs some clean up, it's one of the better sections in the article Ha2772a (talk) 22:57, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Future Final Fours
Where do we find out where future Final Fours are played? Used to be nice and easy to find on this page, but has now vanished. One of those things that, you know, should probably remain on this page. Wikimace08 (talk) 10:02, 2 April 2023 (UTC)


 * ah yeah that was an unintended effect of removing the final four venue list from this page. I did so because it was simply duplicating what was available (venue, champions, date) on the List of NCAA Division I men's basketball champions and actually meant that the only listing of year-by-year champions on the main page was in the venue list. But that doesn't have future venues. Future venues are included in the final four table on List of NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament venues but it's not in chronological order. The best place to add would be add rows for future championship games. Ha2772a (talk) 22:46, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

The deletion of the bids by school and conference page
Terrible idea. Thanks to whoever for making that decision in about 5 minutes. Wikimace08 (talk) 04:26, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 6 April 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) { {ping&#124;ClydeFranklin }} (t/c) 22:12, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament → March Madness – From what I can tell, "March Madness" is the clear common name for the NCAA basketball tournament(s), and arguably has been for the past twenty years. Google ngrams indicates a crossover some time in the 1990s between "NCAA basketball [tournament]" and "March Madness". Indeed, it's one of the few where the nickname has supplanted the official name to the point that it's actually how the NCAA have branded the tournament in the past decade or so (c.f. Freezer Bowl, not "1981 AFC Championship Game") At the very least, I believe this is worth discussion. Sceptre (talk) 19:02, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose - the most critical objection is that "March Madness" refers also to the women's tournament. Regardless, this is a nickname, and the descriptive title should prevail. Walt Yoder (talk) 23:30, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose move. I just don't see this one working out, because "March Madness" is a nickname. The common name is some form of "NCAA basketball tournament".  O.N.R.  (talk) 01:15, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Being a nickname doesn't stop something, especially when it's become a trademark, from also being the common name. See also: Super Bowl I, not 1967 AFL–NFL World Championship Game; Euro 2020, not 2020 UEFA European Football Championship. "March Madness" is clearly the most common name for the NCAA basketball tournament, or at the very least, more common that the descriptive name. Sceptre (talk) 17:53, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I would need to see significant evidence that the "March Madness" phrase would remain the primary topic for the men's tournament only. Last year, the NCAA began to also use the "March Madness" branding for the women's tournament too after a "comprehensive external review of gender equity issues". And therefore, I would probably support moving to  instead. Zzyzx11 (talk) 13:47, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. As others have pointed out, the term "March Madness" is also used in reference to the women's tournament. Given that this article is only about the men's tournament, changing the title would cause confusion and inaccurately represent the current usage of the term. Puhala,ny (talk) 00:10, 8 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose - as many have pointed out, the NCAA has started using the term for the women's tournament as well. And even if that weren't the case, I think something like "NCAA tournament" would probably be the true WP:COMMONNAME - it's more common to hear that teams earned bids to the NCAA tournament, not to March Madness. -fuzzy510 (talk) 04:56, 9 April 2023 (UTC)


 * March Madness should become a WP:CONCEPTDAB Red   Slash  07:11, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wiki Education assignment: Technical and Professional Writing
— Assignment last updated by Eaturvegeez (talk) 19:22, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello! Over the next few weeks I will be making expansive, bold edits to this article. These edits will not include changes to the topic or content, but will merely enhance the structure and delivery of the topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GraceTaylorIV (talk • contribs) 19:54, 26 February 2024 (UTC)