Talk:Nervous Breakdown (EP)

Move

Can we move this to a disambiguation page, as 99% of people are looking for Nervous Breakdown in the sense of Mental Breakdown - Nervous Breakdown is actually more common than Mental Breakdown. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.20.229.150 (talk • contribs) 05:48, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

This was wholly unnecessary. The article on the mental condition is at Mental breakdown, and Nervous breakdown (lowercase "b") already redirects there. There is no other topic that uses the proper noun title "Nervous Breakown" (both words capitalized), so there is no need to move it to a title with a dab phrase. Since we are only dealing with 2 actual articles, the mental condition and the album, a hatnote dab suffices and is already present on both articles. Anyway, there is already a redirect titled Nervous Breakdown (album), so this move was carried out improperly. Now we have an additional, unnecessary layer of redirection for readers who are trying to get to the correct article. When there are only 2 articles to consider, hatnote dabs are the perfect way to go. Now your incorrect move has to go through beaurocratic processes (see below) in order to be undone. In the future please wait for someone to respond to your request before moving a page (per our consensus policy), especially when you notice that a disambiguated article title already exists. --IllaZilla (talk) 20:14, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Requested move (September 2009)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was not moved  Skomorokh, barbarian  10:23, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

---

Nervous Breakdown (Album) → Nervous Breakdown — This article was recently moved from Nervous Breakdown with the rationale that "99% of people searching for Nervous Breakdown are searching for the medical condition rather than this album". However, the titles are not identical, as the medical condition is at Mental breakdown, and Nervous breakdown (lowercase "b") already redirects there anyway. Also there is already Nervous Breakdown (album) which redirects to the album article, so this is a redundant dab. Since we are only dealing with 2 articles anyway (the album and the mental condition), a hatnote dab suffices and is already present on both articles. There is no other topic titled "Nervous Breakdown" (a proper noun with both the "N" and "B" capitalized), so there is no need for this article to be at a title with a dab. Having it there just creates an additional layer of redirection and impedes readers searching for the correct article. IllaZilla (talk) 20:07, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Opppose Disambiguation by capatalisation is not a good method. I've cleared up a few odd redirects, and I've sorted out the hatnotes so it should be easier to find this article now, but most people looking for "nervous breakdown" will be looking for the condition, and the capitals are not enough to differentiate this page. If this article is not moved as the nominator suggests, the capital A in "Album" should be made lowercase to conform with Wikipedia's naming conventions. YeshuaDavid • Talk • 21:13, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Also worth noting there is also a song of this name. YeshuaDavid • Talk • 10:25, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose this is clearly not the primary meaning of nervous breakdown, and since many people expect tha titles be capitalized, it should be about the mental condition. 76.66.197.30 (talk) 02:02, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. I also believe that two article titles should not differ only by capitalisation. Bearing this in mind the condition is the clear primary topic so nervous breakdown should continue to be a redirect to Mental breakdown. Dpmuk (talk) 23:23, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
• Comment: I am not suggesting that the title "Nervous breakdown" (lowercase "b") should redirect to the album. Logic dictates it should stay a redirect to Mental breakdown. What I am suggesting is that the proper noun "Nervous Breakdown", with no disambiguation, should not redirect to the mental condition. Disambiguation by capitalization is, in fact, just fine when there are only 2 articles to consider and only 1 is a proper noun. Hatnotes solve the issue in that case, and were doing an excellent job of that until Devolution (talk · contribs) moved the page without any consensus to do so, and in doing so created an additional redundancy because we already have a redirect at Nervous Breakdown (album) (lowercase "a", per dab guidelines). Now we have two disambiguated titles for the same article. As for the song article, I've redirect it to the album article as it fails WP:NSONGS, so it doesn't bear on the issue. The end result I'm suggesting is that we have the following pages:
  • Mental breakdown – about the mental condition, with a hatnote to the album
  • Nervous breakdown – a redirect to the mental condition
  • Nervous Breakdown – about the album, with a hatnote to the mental condition

I fail to see how this is a flawed scheme, or why we need more than 3 titles to deal with only 2 actual articles. Anyone who correctly searches the proper noun "Nervous Breakdown" looking for the album will arrive at the correct article on the first try. Anyone who searches "Nervous breakdown" or "nervous breakdown" looking for the mental condition will also arrive at the correct article on the first try (via redirection). Anyone who has incorrectly searched "Nervous breakdown" or "nervous breakdown" (improper nouns) looking for the album will arrive at the mental condition and be directed to the correct aritcle via hatnote. Anyone who has incorrectly searched the proper noun "Nervous Breakdown" when looking for the mental condition will arrive at the album page and be directed to the correct article via the hatnote. This is how it worked until 12 days ago, and it was the most efficient method as well as matching the intent of our dab guidelines perfectly. Instead, we now have:

• • Mental breakdown – about the mental condition, with a hatnote to the album
  • Nervous breakdown – a redirect to the mental condition
  • Nervous Breakdown – another redirect to the mental condition
  • Nervous Breakdown (Album) – about the album, with a hatnote to the mental condition
  • Nervous Breakdown (album) – a redirect to the album
  • Nervous Breakdown (song) – another redirect to the album.

That's six titles for just two articles. It doesn't take a genius to see which scheme is more efficient. Under the current scheme there is no way that a user who correctly searches the proper noun "Nervous Breakdown" looking for the album will arrive at the correct article on the first try. They will always have to bounce through the mental condition article first, which is at an entirely different title, and that seems terribly inefficient. The goal is to help readers get to the correct article as quickly as possible, and the current scheme does a poor job of this. --IllaZilla (talk) 19:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

As an aside, this reminds me very much of a similar scenario I dealt with last year with Rites of Spring vs. The Rite of Spring, in which the consensus was no dabs in either title, and a hatnote on each, per Wikipedia:DAB#Deciding_to_disambiguate. --IllaZilla (talk) 21:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

• Comment This RfC discussing whether we should we allow article titles that differ only by capitalisation may be of interest to people invlved in this discussion. Dpmuk (talk) 13:37, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move (October 2009)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no move. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:27, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

---

Nervous Breakdown (album) → Nervous Breakdown — - Per my reasoning in the previous move request, now supported by the clear consensus in this RfC that article titles differing only by capitalisation are allowed. Both Nervous breakdown and nervous breakdown will continue to redirect to Mental breakdown, while a hatnote on Nervous Breakdown will direct readers who may have arrived at the wrong article. --IllaZilla (talk) 23:17, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

• Speedy procedural close as excessive renomination speed as last time in less than a month's time. Even if the RfC turned your way, it should not be reopened so quickly. 76.66.194.183 (talk) 05:18, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Please note, I did not initiate the RfC, and I don't think it "turned my way". I was one of about a dozen editors involved, and a clear consensus emerged from the discussion. Even Dpmuk, who initiated the RfC and was one of the mere 3 editors to comment in the previous move request, recognized the clear consensus and closed the RfC, changing the language of WP:CAPS to reflect it. There is no "excessive renomination speed", as A) there is no prescribed length of time that one must wait before requesting a change, and B) in light of our naming conventions having been changed in a manner pertinent to this request, a re-request is totally appropriate. --IllaZilla (talk) 08:02, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. That vote requires some explanation given the result of the RfC and my comments there. Although I accept the community has accepted that disambiguating by capital letter is OK I feel this should be a common sense exception for two reasons. Given that this is a name of a disorder I think it's reasonable that people may think it's a proper noun and so capitalise both words - in which case the disorder is clearly the primary topic. Second, in this instance I feel that the disorder is the primary topic by such a large margin that I think that the number of users searching 'incorrectly' for the disorder probably outnumbers the number of users searching 'correctly' for the album and so how things are currently set up will inconvenience the fewest users. Dpmuk (talk) 12:48, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

The way I see it, the current way inconveniences the most users. I think we can all agree that the vast majority of users, both experienced and inexperienced, are unlikely to use capitalization in their searches (I also think we can agree that inexperienced users, who are the majority of our readership, are unlikely to use disambiguation phrases in their searches either). They are most likely to type in all lower-case, or at best to capitalize the first letter of the phrase, and in both cases they will arrive at Mental breakdown which I think we agree is the most common intended meaning of the phrase. The very slim number of users who capitalize "Nervous Breakdown" when searching for the mental condition would be inconvenienced, as they are apparently unaware that it is not a proper noun. However, under the current structure 100% of users who know that titles are proper nouns, and capitalize it accordingly when searching, are inconvenienced because they are always redirected to the mental condition. The current scheme inconveniences all users who are searching for the album and know to capitalize it correctly, while conveniencing only the small percentage of users who might incorrectly capitalize both words of a common noun. Moving the article, however, would convenience users who know to capitalize proper nouns while only inconveniencing the small percentage who might incorrectly capitalize a common noun. I believe that the latter scenario inconveniences the least possible number of users, as the number who capitalize both words in "Nervous Breakdown" when searching for the mental condition is likely very small. --IllaZilla (talk) 17:45, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

I can see this argument and the discussion at the RfC made me realise in most situations that it was possibly valid. However in this case I disagree. I think from your comment above you probably already understand the point I'm about to make to say but I'll spell it out in an example as I think it's the easiest way to make my point. Say for example, that in a period of time, 1,000 people are looking for the condition and 5% of these search with capital letters at the start of each word and that in the same period of time 25 users search using the correct capitalisation for the album. In this case by having the disorder at Nervous Breakdown 25 users would get inconvenienced while having the album there would inconvenience 5% of 1000, or 50 people, i.e. more would be inconvenienced by having the album at Nervous Breakdown. As far as I'm aware there's no way to get such statistics so we have to rely on other ways to make a decision. At the moment I feel that the case I outline above is likely to occur in this case and so oppose the move but you obviously think the other way. I am open to being convinced otherwise however. I would also hope you can understand my argument and can see why it doesn't go against the spirit of the RfC discussion if we assume that the case I outline applies in this instance. If so it basically comes down to a disagreement over whether it is actually occurring. Dpmuk (talk) 22:18, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. There is also Nervous Breakdown (Fu-Schnickens album). Nervous Breakdown (album) should be moved to Nervous Breakdown (Black Flag album) (or preferably Nervous Breakdown EP as it is not an album) and Nervous Breakdown (album) should then redirect to a new disambiguation page (at Nervous Breakdown or Nervous breakdown (disambiguation)). The disambiguation page can have these articles plus the songs by Black Flag, Carleen Anderson and Abingdon Boys School. Tassedethe (talk) 06:14, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moving article from Nervous Breakdown (album) to Nervous Breakdown (EP)

Hey, i'm gonna move the article from Nervous Breakdown (album) to Nervous Breakdown (EP), since it is an EP and not an album. --Chickenguy13 (talk) 23:55, 15 October 2010 (UTC)