Talk:Newport County A.F.C./Archive 1

Fair use rationale for Image:Newport County crest.png

Image:Newport County crest.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 22:37, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Newport County crest.png

Image:Newport County crest.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 16:14, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Previous grounds?

Where did they play before 1932? I've looked through some old Rothmans and they don't mention any ground before Somerton Park. Raggiana (talk) 19:14, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I was wondering why it said that too. The County Archive even has a picture from 1912 of the team outside the dressing room at Somerton Park. I think the 1932 date may have something to do with Lysaghts ownership of the ground. Owain (talk) 19:11, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Other Records section

Not sure how year formed, previous names and previous grounds are records. I removed this section, only for it to be undone. Don't really understand the rationale for why. Dancarney (talk) 10:12, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

The information listed there is useful, and "a matter of record". If you can think of a better place to put them then go ahead, but don't just remove them. For the record, other club pages do it the same way, e.g. Cardiff City F.C.#Records. Owain (talk) 10:22, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

You're using two different meanings of the word 'record'. Yes, the Cardiff City article has this, but as it is an article that has not reached good article status, I don't think that this is a good precedent. If you look at football club articles that have reached featured article status you'll note that they don't include this - e.g. Arsenal or Gillingham. Year formed is in the infobox, and the details of Newport's reformations should be in the History section, as should any previous names. Former grounds goes in the stadia section. Dancarney (talk) 12:04, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Sources

This entire article is in desperate need of more sourcing. Since a certian regular editor of this article takes offence at the generalised {{refimprove}} tag, I have had to place various {{cn}} and {{unreferenced section}} templates throughout the article. In about a weeks time I will start removing unsourced material as per Wikipedia guidelines. Jeni ^(talk) 20:34, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I have *again* had to restore removed citation templates. Please point me to a guideline which states that "The article Newport County A.F.C. is exempt from all Wikipedia guidelines in relation to providing reliable sources" Jeni ^(talk) 23:47, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Flags

Anyone heard of bold, revert, discuss? Try using this page. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:55, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

There used to be a tendency to over-use flags in football club templates, but it is clear to see that they have been systematically removed in other club articles. I fail to see how it is vandalism to bring this article in line with all the others. To paraphrase Jeni herself, please show me the guideline where it states the article Newport County A.F.C. has to be different from all the others..." Owain (talk) 21:31, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi Owain. I'm a consistency freak but, as far as I know, there's no rule against articles having content that other articles do not as thats inevitable in the collaborative nature of Wiki. I think the flags against the manager & chairman adds something (albeit small) in every club article and as we are talking 2 people in an article I don't think thats overuse. Many clubs used to have flags against manager & chairman so unless there is a hard and fast rule somewhere the systematic removal shouldn't have happened anyway ... and if there is a rule I think the rule should be changed. Just my humble opinion, regards Pwimageglow (talk) 09:32, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

My understanding is that the flags are there to representing sporting nationality. Since the chairman and manager are (usually) not players then their nationality doesn't need to be reflected in the infobox, and possibly not even in the article, unless it is somehow important. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 10:18, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if your understanding is defined anywhere but 99.9% of the players on wiki will never get close to representing their country. Ok they potentially could, but potentially so could the manager and chairman and me. More importantly, unless theres a rule which forces deletion of content then the flags can be shown against manager/chairman. Pwimageglow (talk) 12:39, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Two good reasons not to include flags here:

1. They are not relevant, and hence their use is contrary to several aspects of MOS:ICON, such as "Do not emphasize nationality without good reason"
2. More importantly, they are unreferenced, and hence directly contrary to WP:BLP

Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:58, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

1. Not relevant because ? personally I think its quite interesting and there is good reason.
2. Are you saying flags should be removed from ALL players too as they are not referenced ?

Pwimageglow (talk) 12:39, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

1. Not relevant to the article in any way. If it's important that the club is managed by someone who originates from England, say, presumably the article will say so and explain why it's relevant. Otherwise, it's just decorative, and WP doesn't do "decorative".
2. Yes, certainly they should be removed if the people are living and if it's not referenced. I'm not proposing that myself, but I think it should happen.

Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:49, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I think most readers would say that where the current manager of the club originates from is information relevant to the article - just happens to be a picture rather than words. Are you suggesting that, for example, Home Ground be deleted because clubs dont have to play there ?. Anyway, opinion is irrelevant unless theres a rule to support deletion of content. If you are proposing deleting flags from managers/chairman under the 'Decoration' guideline and you also think its irrelevant for players ... then I think you you have to propose deletion from players too - with respect, you can't have it both ways.Regards Pwimageglow (talk) 18:07, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

In any case, the concept of "sporting nationality" apart from not applying to non-sportspeople is also not defined until you play for a country. This is a problem with listing flags next to non-international players. FIFA does not allocate each player to one of its member associations prior to playing an international match, as has been pointed out in the many discussions on the topic of the squad lists. The flags in the infobox are also used contrary to the Flag MoS which states that the first use of the icon must be accompanied by the name of the country and only subsequent uses can dispense with it. The flags used in the infobox are irrelevant, unnecessary and contrary to the Flag MoS. This is why they have been removed from almost all articles except, so far, this one. 208.80.36.2 (talk) 14:21, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Why irrelevant ? I think most people would find where the current manager of a club is from is relevant to the article. All Wiki content is arguable unnecessary as the information can be found elsewhere. I'm unaware of a definition of Sportspeople and non-sportspeople in Wiki, I think most people would consider the team manager to be a sportsperson (and in this example Dean Holdsworth did play for England B - which is more than 99.9% of the players on wiki will ever do). Again, opinion is irrelevant - as already stated...there's no rule against articles having content that other articles do not as thats inevitable in the collaborative nature of Wiki and unless there is a hard and fast rule somewhere the systematic removal shouldn't have happened anyway ... and if there is a rule I think the rule should be changed. Regards Pwimageglow (talk) 18:07, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Frankly, where the manager is from isn't relevant to the article! In any case, there are two other reasons why it's not appropriate on a team page: Firstly, such information is available on the individual's page if they have one - if they don't then it's doubly irrelevant. Secondly the flags do not indicate where a person is from they ostensibly indicate what team an individual is qualified to play for, although again this is subject to debate as entitlement to play for a team isn't pre-allocated in this way. These flags are an irrelevant distraction, which is clearly why they have been expunged from most places. Owain (talk) 21:34, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi Owain - with respect, thats just your opinion and you need more than opinion to delete content. You say its not relevant (with exclamation), because the information is available on the Managers page, well so it is for players (including those without a wiki page) - are you proposing deleting all flags from all players ?. I'll take your word for it that what the flag means is debateable as you've countered you own point - but if it does mean entitlement to play for a team then in this example Holdsworth is entitled (and has) played for England and Blight entitled for Wales. Ok they probably wont in future but 99.9% of the players on wiki won't. If flags are relevant for players then they are equally, if not more, relevant for Managers and Chairmen. Again, thats just opinion - but content can't be deleted unless there is a rule requiring deletion. Regards, Pwimageglow (talk) 09:38, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

"..content can't be deleted unless there is a rule requiring deletion." Utter nonsense! I suggest you go back and read WP:EP. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:47, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

As you referred people to this discussion page I suggest you be more polite. None of the guidelines quoted by people to support their personal opinion to delete the flags stands up to scrutiny because there is no discernable difference between the use of flags for players/managers/chairmen. As I said, if you want to delete flags from players, managers and chairmen then propose it.Pwimageglow (talk) 19:00, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

As I said, including the flags against the names of managers and chairmen is clearly contrary to policy as well as practice elsewhere. Nothing to do with "personal opinion". Do you think flags should be placed against the names of the chairmen and chief executives of any other sort of business? Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

As I said, clearly not contrary to policy and practice elsewhere is irrelevant. If you want to delete flags from players, managers and chairmen then propose it.Pwimageglow (talk) 20:18, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth I do think that the flags against players in the squad list are pointless. I has absolutely no bearing on the team in question as like you state yourself 99.9% of them will never play internationally. It is also WP:SPECULATION as there could be a whole raft of potential teams that a player could play for in the future, so picking one and placing it next to him is disingenuous and potentially wrong crystal-ball gazing. I fail to see how a flag next to the manager who has played internationally and a chairman who hasn't and never will adds anything but confusion. How are the flags chosen? It opens up a whole can of nationalist worms that have no place being here. Owain (talk) 10:22, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I believe that, on some clubs' websites, international registration information is shown for players. That's fine, verifiable, relevant, and worthy of inclusion in my view. But where it isn't shown, it's likely to be original research or synthesis and shouldn't be included. For example, even if we know (and have references) that a player is born in a particular country, it doesn't necessarily follow that they would choose to play for that country - they may choose to play for the country where their parents were born, for instance, and it would be wrong to make any assumptions about it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

This is a prime example of where flags should not be used. If it was important we would have used text. Images = bad accessability. I have removed the flags. Se also discussion at WT:FOOTY. Rettetast (talk) 21:18, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

In that case you need to remove flags from all footy players, also flags from boxers in the World boxing champions article (which clearly doesn't represent the international boxing team they boxed for) and coaches/managers/administrators from the British Lions articles (which doesnt represent the country that they played for as some didnt) ...and so on. Also rugby union clubs infobox (see Worcester Warriors example) chairman, coaches, captain, most caps, top scorer, most tries - people all have flags....and even more silly England National Rugby union team where the captain, top scorer etc have England flags ! Pwimageglow (talk) 13:55, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

What is your point? Rettetast (talk) 16:32, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Honours & Notable Players.

To remove duplication and reduce maintenance I suggest the Honours section just links to the 'List of Newport County Records & stats' page. Similarly suggest 'Notabble Players' section just links to the List of Newport County Players page. Any objections anyone Pwimageglow (talk) 20:07, 1 May 2012 (UTC)?

Sounds good to me. Or perhaps it could be made into a collapsible template that could be included into both articles, thus reducing the maintenance needed? Owain (talk) 08:22, 2 May 2012 (UTC)