Talk:Ngô Sĩ Liên

Source
A much better article than the Vietnamese or Chinese Wikipedia versions! Small detail: the information sourced from Nhung Tuyêt Trân and Reid should in my view be attributed to Yu Insun Lê Văn Hưu and Ngô Sĩ Liên: Comparison of their Perception of Vietnamese History pp. 45-71 in Nhung Tuyêt Trân and Reid, Anthony J.S. Việt Nam Borderless Histories, The University of Wisconsin Press, Madison, 2006, vii + 385 pp. ISBN 978-0-299-21770-9. Brilliant work ! --André de StCoeur (talk) 16:44, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! You're right about the precision of source, Nhung Tuyêt Trân and Reid are in fact editors, not authors of the text (which belongs to Yu Insun), but for simplifying the citation, I used only the page numbers and editors in general (the same for Anthony Reid, Kristine Alilunas-Rodgers, because the article that I cited is written by O. W. Wolters, not these two editors). So if you want to specify the source, then go ahead, I have no objection :). Grenouille vert (talk) 14:50, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Vietnamisms
The author of the article is obviously Vietnamese. This is obvious not only from the English but the style.

e.g.:

"Ngô Sĩ Liên is appreciated not only for the precision of his records but also for the innovative method of compilation, he was the first writer who extracted information for historical book from collections of myths and legends such as Lĩnh Nam chính quái or Việt điện u linh tập."

Lien was the very first person to use myths and legends in a historical work? I find that hard to believe, and if it is true, then it is tautologous. All primitive historians rely on myths and legends, e.g. Geoffrey of Monmouth, who basically wrote fiction, or Livy, who was forced to rely on myths and legends for the first part of his history because he had nothing else. What is remarkable is the first historian who does not rely on myths and legends, e.g. Thucydides.

I recommend having a look at a few other Wikipedia pages by Western authors for an idea on how they write, before re-writing this page. It is important to not be seduced into writing in the 'nationalistic propaganda' style you have been exposed to all your life through Vietnamese textbooks if you want yourself and your writings to be taken seriously in the West.

Good luck! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.138.29.26 (talk) 08:13, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I've had a re-think about the above.

My interpretation was based on interpreting the comma in "...compilation, he..." as a colon (which I also corrected in the text). However it occurred to me that the author may have intended it as a semi-colon, in which case there would be no logical connection between "NSL is appreciated...for the innovative method of compilation" and "he was the first writer who extracted information for historical book from collections of myths and legends". This would then make the text less objectionable, although my comment still stands. I doubt he was the first historian, even in Vietnam, to base a historical work on fairytales and propaganda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.138.29.26 (talk) 08:43, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Signed 144.138.29.26 (talk) 08:44, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi, you make me sad because ... you don't even look at the references for those information :), I used almost solely Western sources (O.W. Wolters and Talor for example) for this article (and other articles as well), so please don't remark about my education or the education system in Vietnam, it is really, really, not nice at all. About the problem with "the first", it's my fault that I forgot to add one "Vietnamese" between the "first historian" and I add it right now, sorry for the inconvenience and please understand that it's only a normal error in writing that did not come from any "propaganda" or "Vietnamism" or something like that, I hate POV just as you and other serious contributors at Wikipedia. Grenouille vert (talk) 11:12, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 12:14, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Ngo Si Lien → Ngô Sĩ Liên – (i) To restore original article title after 1. undiscussed move, 2. move-warring and 3. use of G6 dbmove template for "uncontroversial move" proxying uninvolved admin Y, 4. redirect edited, preventing revert. (ii) WP:IRS Pelley Postcolonial Vietnam 2002 Page 151 "Lê literati such as Ngô Sĩ Liên looked back at the Trần dynasty (1225–1400)"; Burke The streets of Vietnam : a historical companion 2001 "Ngô Sĩ Liên was a renowned scholar who served the regime of the enlightened emperor, Lê Thánh Tông (1460-1497)" Reid Việt Nam: Borderless Histories 2006 "Times had drastically changed by Ngô Sĩ Liên's Lê dynasty."  In ictu oculi (talk) 05:07, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, both on the merits (per the same arguments as in a number of other recent Vietnamese-topic articles) and as a reversal of a move that was part of a pattern of somewhat underhanded undiscussed moves over many months by a particular user (as discussed at sockpuppet investigations and elsewhere). — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 14:18, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I guarantee that many more readers are searching for the ASCII form of this name since it is typeable. Google doesn’t index redirects, so they do not help most readers. If this is being done at the author’s request, I have to wonder why someone would want their article at a title that is more difficult for readers to search for, link to, and read. As editors we are not supposed to consider such practical matters, but rather base our decisions on guidelines. IRS has nothing to do with diacritics. According to WP:DIACRITICS, we must, “follow the general usage in reliable sources that are written in the English language.” The form of the this name with diacritics is a specialist style fancy found in journals and the like. We should follow the style of reference works and material intended for an audience wider than just academics who specialize in Vietnam. See, for example, Taylor's Birth of Vietnam, Cambridge History of Southeast Asia, and Encyclopedia of Modern Asia. The general histories and encyclopedias do not use Vietnamese diacritics, although they may not mention this individual specifically. Almost all the Vietnamese bios are currently at ASCII titles. So if this one was moved to a title with diacritics it would look very much out of place. Here are Jimbo's thoughts on the issue of Dang Huu Phuc vs. Đặng Hữu Phúc. Kauffner (talk) 04:39, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I just Googled Ngô Sĩ Liên and Ngo Si Lien and the result was exactly the same, it came up second. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:01, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * For me, puts Vietnamese Wiki on top, which doesn't even come up if I google . The list of results is certainly different. This article currently has both forms in it, so it comes up either way. If the title was changed to the proposed form, that would no longer be the case. Kauffner (talk) 09:13, 31 July 2012 (UTC)


 * support per nom. Sources which do use diacritics, do not omit them for this person. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:50, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, per P.T. Aufrette. I understand Kauffner's concerns about typing the name; that's easily fixed with a redirect. Redirects are cheap. bobrayner (talk) 20:04, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, redirects are cheap. We should prefer accuracy when there is a perfect solution in redirects. -DJSasso (talk) 16:03, 1 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Support return to original title per nom and supporting sources. English typically does not "translate" names except for some notable European historical figures whose names have English equivalents.  In addition, stealth moves to controversial titles should not be rewarded.  —  AjaxSmack   02:11, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Support As noted by bobrayner, redirects are cheap. Accuracy is more important than ease of typing. Cheers, Zaldax (talk) 18:24, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Creation of the "Kinh" ethnicity
The Le dynasty created the Kinh ethnicity in the 15th century

http://books.google.com/books?id=ktazW5kWYy0C&pg=PA298&dq=kinh+people+of+capital&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g7xJUs2iMoO48wSzq4GYBg&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=kinh%20people%20of%20capital&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=2j6GNiMMc1oC&pg=PA474&dq=kinh+people+of+capital&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g7xJUs2iMoO48wSzq4GYBg&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=kinh%20people%20of%20capital&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=JG619Tq4ElkC&pg=PA127&dq=kinh+people+of+capital&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g7xJUs2iMoO48wSzq4GYBg&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=kinh%20people%20of%20capital&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=AkIhYEavBrEC&pg=PA139&dq=kinh+people+of+capital&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g7xJUs2iMoO48wSzq4GYBg&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=kinh%20people%20of%20capital&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=a2TerRF1j74C&pg=PA185&dq=kinh+people+of+capital&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g7xJUs2iMoO48wSzq4GYBg&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=kinh%20people%20of%20capital&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=oiLYu2-uc8IC&pg=PT429&dq=kinh+people+of+capital&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g7xJUs2iMoO48wSzq4GYBg&ved=0CGUQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=kinh%20people%20of%20capital&f=false

Le historians like Ngô Sĩ Liên were commisioned by the dynasty to create creation myths for their ethnic group, so Ngo claimed that the Kinh were descended from Shennong Emperor

http://books.google.com/books?id=Bc30ytJmwzMC&pg=PA108#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=P2HP31kOSA4C&pg=PA210#v=onepage&q&f=false

Vietnamese Confucian scholars collected the legends about the Hung Kings with the agenda of constructing a new Vietnamese national identity.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/DeakinLRev/2001/15.html

Ngo Si Lien traced the Vietnamese back to the Shennong Emperor and the Hung Kings

page 324

http://khoavanhoc.edu.vn/attachments/381_Liam%20Kelley_%20Confucianism%20in%20Vietnam,%202006.pdf.

18:11, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

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