Talk:Nicola de la Haie

"High" sheriff of Lincolnshire
There was no such thing as a "high sheriff" at the time of Nicolaa, although sheriffs might have under-sheriffs to aid them in their work. The office of high sheriff evolved much later. It is therefore inappropriate to use this title in relation to Nicholaa. DeAragon 05:27, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The problem then arises with the High Sheriff of Lincolnshire article (which makes no mention of de la Haye) which doesn't state anything about the change or development from Sheriff to High Sheriff, as do not other county High Sheriff articles. In fact from some, eg High Sheriff of Yorkshire, describe the office of High Sheriff as ancient, however the High Sheriff article states that it isn't. My view is that we can either accept the WP anomaly that appears accepted by High Sheriff articles, and, for consistency, keep de la Haye as a High Sheriff, or call her just a Sheriff. If the latter, the honorary title box in the article, with her described as just “Sheriff”, red-linked, becomes rather meaningless and confusing, and would best be removed.
 * If the change to “Sheriff” is through an idea that “High Sheriff” is anachronistic, this again raises a point. Anachronistic means outdated and no longer in use. If “High Sheriff” is a more recent (and official) term, then “Sheriff” would be the form that is outdated. “Sheriff” is a term that is understood, and still has common currency, in Scotland to some extent, and in the USA definitely, but this article’s context is England, where both “Sheriff” and “High Sheriff” rarely if ever figure as important or relevant to ‘real life’ (in fact few know what the terms in the English context means) and are not part of common understanding except through reference to Wyatt Earp or the fictitious Sheriff of Nottingham. On balance I think “High Sheriff” should remain as it is the presently correct and modern term in England, and provides a separation from sheriffs of present-day USA, and the Wild West and Robin Hood of popular imagination – unless of course we believe that WP England-centric articles should be defined by, and written with an eye to, American-centricity. Acabashi (talk) 04:26, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I have added Nicola de la Haye to Brattleby. Acabashi (talk) 14:46, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe that the current, modern term is appropriate to use for the medieval period. The word "anachronism" means inappropriate to the time under discussion--and that can be accomplished by imposing a modern term on an earlier era when that term was not in use, a common definition of anachronism. In at least the Anglo-Saxon, Norman, and Angevin periods, the office was sheriff, derived from shire-reeve. The Normans introduced their title of viscomes, which is always translated as sheriff, not high sheriff, in the scholarly literature on medieval England. Nicholaa was a sheriff, not a high sheriff, of Lincolnshire, as was her husband Gerard de Canville. The article on High Sheriff should indicate when that title came into use. DeAragon 04:51, 18 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dearagon (talk • contribs)

Title--spelling of "Nicolaa"
Why is this article titled "Nicola de la Haye" when the lady's name was almost always spelled "Nicolaa?" Even consistently throughout the article, she is referred to as "Nicolaa." I have looked at this article several times; every time, I type "Nicolaa de la Haye" into the search box--which suggests to me that others may be doing the same thing. Yes, I got here eventually, but it just seems ridiculous that the title of the article would not match the usual spelling of the subject's name. I would have edited it myself, but I can't figure out how to do that. Can somebody a little more experienced with this stuff fix this, or explain why it is "wrong" and should be left wrong? My usual activity on Wikipedia involves correcting spelling or punctuation errors, or occasionally tweaking confusing wording in articles--an incorrect title is not something I've run up against before. (And this is my first foray into a "talk" section, so please forgive and correct if I screwed something up!)

In the texts of her own charters, her name is spelled as Nicholaa if it is spelled out. (More often her name is given as "N. de la Haye".) In other contemporary documents, her name appears as Nicola/Nicolaa or Nichola/Nicholaa. The issue of spelling medieval names is a tricky one. Spelling was not regularized in the late 12th and early 13th century, and even the way an individual was referred to might vary significantly. Whoever initially created the article's title chose the more common modern spelling of her name.DeAragon 22:55, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Did she inherit the role of sheriff? NO, her inheritance was only as constable
See Nicola de la Haye famously defended Lincoln castle from attack in 1191 when Prince John tried to seize the throne from Richard I. She had inherited her father’s land in Lincolnshire and his position as keeper of the castle. https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/significant-people-collection/nicola-de-la-haye/

OR this source:

Nichola de la Haye: the Woman who Saved England https://www.visitlincoln.com/blog/nichola-de-la-haye

Nichola inherited the position of Constable of Lincoln Castle from her father Richard de la Haye, a minor Lincolnshire Lord. Her work was noticed by King John, who in 1216 made Nichola Sheriff of Lincolnshire, even though she was a woman and in her mid-sixties.

Or this source: https://magnacarta800th.com/schools/biographies/women-of-magna-carta/lady-nicholaa-de-la-haye/ Further proof of Nicholaa’s high esteem in King John’s eyes came on 18 October 1216, when she was appointed joint sheriff of Lincolnshire, alongside Philip Mark, one of John’s most notorious henchmen, ... The appointment of a woman as a sheriff was highly unusual

Or this book: https://books.google.ca/books?id=lHk8DAAAQBAJ&pg=PA1123&dq=nichola+de+la+haie+sheriff+lincoln&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwia6fP0xq_qAhUohXIEHUvODQgQ6AEwBHoECAYQAg#v=onepage&q=nichola%20de%20la%20haie%20sheriff%20lincoln&f=false (King John appointed her in 1216)

Or this book: https://books.google.ca/books?id=vsZt2YLcAaAC&pg=PA50&dq=nichola+de+la+haie+appointed+sheriff+lincoln&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwip97qgx6_qAhUkmHIEHebmB7EQ6AEwA3oECAEQAg#v=onepage&q=nichola%20de%20la%20haie%20appointed%20sheriff%20lincoln&f=false (appointed Sheriff)

I have corrected the article to indicate that she had been appointed sheriff, not inherited the role.

Peter K Burian (talk) 21:55, 2 July 2020 (UTC)