Talk:Nona Gaprindashvili

Biography assessment rating comment
WikiProject Biography Summer 2007 Assessment Drive

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 17:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
Does anybody know Gaprindashvili's paternym, for inclusion here? Trekphiler 03:13, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that patronyms are appropriate for native Georgians. In Russia they insert "Terentievna" to make her name conform to the Russian pattern but I don't think we should do that on the English wikipedia. MaxBrowne (talk) 02:01, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

First Female Grandmaster
>> She was awarded the Grandmaster title on the basis of having won the Women's World Championship, under a rule similar to the one that granted the Grandmaster title to the winner of the World Junior Championship event. >>

This is not correct. She was awarded the Grandmaster Title through the regular norm system. However, some discretion was used in her case. The requirements involved achieving certain results in events totalling at least 24 games. She had the results, but was a bit short in overall games. They exercised discretionary powers, and gave her the title anyway, as is done from time to time. I've heard (but can't positively confirm) that Mednis got his title the same way that year.

Here's the way Pal Benko tells it on page 15 of the January 1979 issue of Chess Life & Review:

...Of course [Nona] had earned the "woman grandmaster" title awarded by the International Chess Federation (FIDE), as have some two dozen other women. But she also earned the (men's) international master title, becoming the first woman ever to have done so (Vera Menchik was probably strong enough to have earned this title, but she died in 1943 [sic], long before the modern title system was adopted), and in Buenos Aires in November 1978 FIDE bestowed upon Nona Gaprindashvili the (men's) international grandmaster title. Not only is she the only woman ever to have received this title, she is the only woman ever to have deserved it.

It is regrettable, therefore, that she did not actually earn the title in the regular way: FIDE requires that to earn the grandmaster title a player must achieve certain minimum scores in tournaments consisting of at least twenty-four games in aggregate (the description is highly oversimplified, but you get the idea), and Nona was two or three games short. Yet the FIDE Qualifications Commission voted to give her the title. In my opinion, this historic occasion should not have been allowed to carry even this slight tarnish. 22:18, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Source: Chess Life & Review, January 1979

-- BurkeDevlin 22:19, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * So when did the Women's World Chess Champion automatically earn the GM title? Perhaps we can answer that by determining when, and on what basis, Maia Chiburdanidze earned the title. Peter Ballard 00:08, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure. Not in 1978, since Benko's words indicate that Nona was the only female GM at the time. But Chessgames.com's biography of her (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=16894) claims that Chiburdanidze became a GM in 1984. -- BurkeDevlin 17:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I've corrected the Gaprindashvili article, using the Benko quote. Not sure what to do about the Chiburdanidze article. I could quote chessgames; the problem is chessgames also relies on volunteers and isn't inherently better than Wikipedia (though in the case of the 1984 date for Chiburdanidze's GM title, I suspect chessgames is right). Peter Ballard 03:28, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Jeremy Gaige's Chess Personalia confirms that Chiburdanidze received the GM title in 1984. This is generally considered an accurate source of chess biographical info. Quale 03:39, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm assuming you've got that book with you. Would you mind going to the Maia Chiburdanidze and adding that reference, with page number if possible? Peter Ballard 03:50, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd be glad to. I intend to go through some of our bios and double check dates against Gaige, also checking and or adding places of birth and death as appropriate. Quale 06:41, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, one other thing. I had put [sic] after "1943" in the quote, because this is, apparently a typographical error in the CL&R article. Vera Menchik died in 1944. This is incidental to the bit about Nona's title, but I just thought I'd mention it. -- Burke Devlin 15:17, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Dennis Monokroussos has called me to task for saying that he reported that Truong and Polgar had posted fake messages from 36 fake individuals to his web blog. Also, he says that the true number was more than 36. 36 was just the number of fake people who posted to his third blog on this subject.

http://chessmind.powerblogs.com/posts/1192490748.shtml

On a related subject, Nona Gaprindashvili was NOT awarded the grandmaster title because of being the woman's world champion. Nona was awarded the Grandmaster Title because of winning Lone Pine 1977. Lone Pine 1977 was the strongest tournament held in the world that year and anybody who had won it would have been awarded the grandmaster title. Being a woman had nothing to do with it.

Back in 1977, the now standard system of awarding the grandmaster title based on at least two GM norms involving at least 24 games was just getting started. I am not sure exactly what year it was introduced but it was about then. Winning a tournament like Lone Pine against a nearly all-grandmaster field was such a spectacular result especially back then when few grandmaster events were played that the winner undoubtedly would have received the GM title.

Sam Sloan 10:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC) (Some irrelevant parts snipped by Peter Ballard 10:36, 17 October 2007 (UTC))

Nona made a GM-norm in Dortmund in 1978. I very clearly remember this was her final norm for the title. The 24-game-rule wasn't in place in those days, it was established later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.174.107.46 (talk) 16:01, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

The 24 game rule was indeed in place in 1978. However plenty of players received the title with 23 (or even 22) games if one of their norms exceeded the requirement by half a point or more. The main difference to today was that the performance level required was 2550. After a glut of title awards in 1978 and 1979, the title norm performance requirement was raised to 2600. With reference to Gaprindashvili, her Lone Pine win would definitely not have earned her a title by itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.33.218.188 (talk) 10:19, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Gaige and Nona Gaprindashvili
Gaige says (p132) "GM 1980" RayJohnstone (talk) 03:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

The Queen's Gambit
I removed the In Popular Culture section. It's only entry was The Queen's Gambit. However, not only isn't Gaprindashvili featured, it's only a mention in passing, and to top it off, it's basically an insult. I don't consider it a proper use of "In Popular Culture", where you expect links to works that focus on the article subject. Instead I'll repurpose the text for the main section. CapnZapp (talk) 20:14, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Grandmaster title, revisited
There was a discussion of exactly how Gaprindashvili earned the GM title in this talk page, starting in 2007 and finishing in 2013. The outcome was text that says:
 * In 1978 Gaprindashvili became the first woman to be awarded the Grandmaster title by FIDE. She was granted the title after scoring two grandmaster norms totaling 23 games,[failed verification] the last of which was winning Lone Pine 1977 against a field of 45 players, mostly grandmasters. Although the GM title normally required 24 games, by exceeding the GM 'norm' requirement in Lone Pine, FIDE found her results over 23 games[failed verification] equivalent to 24 games and made her the first woman Grandmaster.[3]

citing an explanation by Pal Benko in the January 1979 issue of Chess Life. The "failed verification" templates are there because Benko's explanation and the text explanation do not agree with each other. The discussion in this talk page suggests that the text explanation was not derived from Benko's explanation, but had some other source, and the citation of Benko was somewhat of an afterthought.

I do not think that either explanation can be correct. The Lone Pine tournament was 9 rounds, and the Dortmund tournament was 11, for a total of 20. The difference between 20 games and 24 is greater than one (as given in the text) and greater than "two or three" (as given by Benko). These differences are not a small matter. Notwithstanding the discussion in this talk page, FIDE has been notoriously hard-nosed about making exceptions to its rules for granting titles. (See Frank Anderson (chess player) for example.) And if FIDE had made an exception for Gaprindashvili, considering the general attitude toward women in chess in the 1970's, I would expect serious objections would have been raised.

However, determining exactly how she got the title is not so easy, 42 years on. The primary source would be her title application form; if there were secondary sources, they might be in contemporary chess magazines, most likely not English-language.

I looked at other Wiki articles about Gaprindashvili (Georgian, Russian, German) and found no mention of any irregularity in her title.

I looked around the Web for strong tournaments that Gaprindashvili might have earned additional norms in. Tbilisi 1974 (Goglidze Memorial) was 15 rounds, and Dortmund 1974 was 11 rounds, and Gaprindashvili achieved GM-level results in both, but without the title application at my fingertips, I can't say if either was good for a norm.

I suggest that we altogether eliminate the text explaining about irregularity in Gaprindashvili's title, along with the citation of Benko. We should follow the lead of the other Wiki articles about Gaprindashvili and just say that she was awarded the title in 1978. Since we are English Wiki, it is appropriate to highlight her performance at Lone Pine, and even to mention that it contributed to her GM title. But anything further than that is little better than speculation. Bruce leverett (talk) 21:13, 6 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Dortmund 1974 was unlikely to be a norm, because only two of the players were GM's at the time, and because the average rating was low, due to some strong players being unrated at the time.


 * Sandomierz 1976, a Swiss, was a good result, and Gaprindashvili scored 1.5 out of 3 against GM's, but I don't know if it was a norm. Bruce leverett (talk) 18:49, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Chessmetrics says that Sandomierz was Gaprindashvili's best individual result, +4 against opposition rated 2538 average, but those were Chessmetrics ratings, of course. I will try to get more information about this.  Bruce leverett (talk) 01:42, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for researching this. Although Benko's chess writing is of encyclopedic interest, I agree that we also must beware of possible WP:UNDUE weight if the facts don't seem to align with Benko's claims. Quale (talk) 03:45, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * In fact Lone Pine 1977 was the only norm she earned. See John Graham's Women in chess : players of the modern age, pp. 32–35, which can be borrowed online if you create an account. I quote the most relevant portions on pp. 34–35:
 * "In 1978, Gaprindashvili had a chance to achieve the second norm for the grandmaster title at the Dortmund International tournament. Four grandmasters and four international masters were competing, and she needed a score of 8 for the GM norm. [...] Gaprindishvili did well in the remainder of the tournament until the last game, which she drew in what was subsequently shown to be a winning position. That gave her 7½ points, sufficient for second place but not enough for the grandmaster norm. [...] Time was against Gaprindashvili in her search for the elusive second GM norm. Within months, the international federation initiated new and more severe rules for attaining GM norms; they had to be set in events of at least 24 games in aggregate. Nona was two or three games short of the requirements. Nevertheless, she had earned the title of international master and was a women's grandmaster. Since she was caught at the change of rules, and in recognition of her prowess, the international federation, in Buenos Aires in November 1978, awarded Gaprindashvili the title of grandmaster (officially international grandmaster). She was 36 at the time."
 * BCM Vol. 98 (1978), p. 242 and New Zealand Chess, August 1978, p. 95 also confirm that she did not earn a norm at Dortmund 1978.
 * However, Graham is incorrect that the 24-game rule did not yet exist. As page 149 of Batsford's FIDE Chess Yearbook 1976/7 noted, players who had only achieved two norms already had to also meet the 24-game rule.
 * Also, page 83 gives the crosstable for Sandomierz 1976, and notes that only one norm was earned, an IM norm by Adamski. It appears that Gaprindashvili again missed the GM norm by half a point: per page 152, 70% was needed for a GM norm in a category 7 tournament, but she scored only 7.5/11. Cobblet (talk) 08:07, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I have created an account and looked at Graham and at the FIDE yearbook.  It's clear that Gaprindashvili did not have three norms, but it's vexing that both Graham and Benko managed to misstate the discrepancy, meaning that I cannot quote them, and have to be very careful about citing them.  I will make appropriate revisions to the article.
 * Ordinarily, it would be of doubtful use to the encyclopedia to dwell on irregularities in players' title applications, but this one made it into print (e.g. Benko), so I cannot just ignore it. I was reminded of Rosendo Balinas Jr., whose GM title was granted on the basis of one spectacular norm, plus, I have been told, a couple of "close calls", somewhat like Gaprindashvili.  We say in that article, "As a result of his victory in Odessa, FIDE awarded Balinas the International Chess Grandmaster title", not mentioning that the regular requirement of norms was bent.  Bruce leverett (talk) 02:35, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't think of it as dwelling on irregularities, but rather as part of telling the story of how she became the world's first female GM. The facts are that she made one GM norm (apparently being the first woman ever to do so: Soltis, Soviet Chess 1917–1991, p. 347) and nearly made two others, and FIDE saw fit to give her the title even though she didn't meet the formal requirements. Graham and to an extent Benko can be cited for that much.
 * In the early days of the FIDE rating system, getting the GM title without having gotten all the norms was perhaps a more common occurrence than one might expect. Apart from the example of Balinas in 1976 who I imagine served as useful precedent for Gaprindashvili, the 1977 Congress also "awarded the GM title to four inactive IM who were very strong players but who had not met the requirements of the existing regulations": Arpad Elo, The Rating of Chess Players, Past and Present, 2nd ed., p. 71. Cobblet (talk) 04:57, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I have done a rewrite. Still working on a proper citation for the BCM article about Dortmund.  Bruce leverett (talk) 23:48, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Netflix lawsuit
WP:NOTNEWS warns against describing every twist and turn in the ongoing lawsuit in the Wikipedia biography of Gaprindashvili: "While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion and Wikipedia is not written in news style. For example, routine news reporting of announcements, sports, or celebrities is not a sufficient basis for inclusion in the encyclopedia."

The recent decision by a judge to allow the lawsuit to proceed looks to me like an example of what not to cover. When the lawsuit is over (dismissed, settled, or decided), then it will be time to summarize it. Bruce leverett (talk) 18:20, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Various clarifications
I am posting some corrections to the talk page, rather than making them immediately, to avoid relying on brief edit summaries to describe the problems I will be solving, and to enable the recent editor to reply in a coherent way if desired.

Jennifer Shahade is described as a Grandmaster, but she has the title Woman Grandmaster. Likewise for Rusudan Goletiani. These are two different titles, not different qualifications of the same title. Using one in place of the other is a serious mistake.

To the best of my knowledge, Gaprindashvili's performances at Sandomierz and Dortmund did not earn "half a norm each". Rather, in each tournament, her score was one-half point less than the score that would have been required for a norm. As the saying goes, "close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades"; Gaprindashvili came close to norms, but did not get norms or fractions of norms, in either tournament.

In the recent revisions, the article no longer cites a source for Gaprindashvili's performance at Sandomierz, does not cite Kashdan's article for her performance at Lone Pine, and for Dortmund, cites a different, but by no means more authoritative or easier to access, source. I plan to restore the old citations, but would be happy to consider why they were removed or replaced.

Where the article formerly said that Gaprindashvili "tied for first" at Lone Pine, it now says that she "ranked first". This is misleading as there was a tie; and moreover, "ranked" is not customary usage in describing a person's standing in a chess tournament; it is more often used to describe a person's rating relative to those of others. Likewise for Dortmund. For some reason the description of her standing at Sandomierz has been omitted altogether. I will restore the old wording in each case.

The article does not cite a source directly in claiming that Gaprindashvili won the USSR Women's Chess Championship five times. However, that article cites the webite "Rusbase" for all its data, so I suppose that this article should cite that website too. Bruce leverett (talk) 04:49, 22 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I have no issue with wording changes. I was using the terms that I saw while reading about Gaprindashvili.
 * I don't know where I read the "half-norm" thing, and it's possible that I misread it.
 * I replaced Kashdan (1977) and Keene (1978) with Golemba (1992) because they were contemporary articles. Sources from after an event are preferable to sources from during the event, and academic books are generally preferable to magazines.
 * The exact quote from Golemba (1992) is: Competing under the Swiss system of nine rounds and forty-eight players, Gaprindashvili finished first in the Lone Pine Tournament in 1977 and second in the Dortmund Tournament in 1978. I was unable to verify the original source; if she did in fact tie, then yes, it should have a source saying so.
 * I removed O'Connell (1977) for the same reasons as Kashdan and Keene. The other sources didn't seem to indicate that Sandomierz was significant to her career relative to Lone Pine and Dortmund to warrant replacing. No objection to its restoration if it is important.
 * Thebiguglyalien ( talk ) 05:46, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the explanations.
 * The Kashdan article was written after the event, by the director of the event. This kind of source is not as effective for demonstrating notability as the book by Golemba, that is, many articles are written by tournament directors about tournaments that are not really notable.  However, in this case the notability of the tournament is well established, and I cited Kashdan because it includes an excellent summary of Gaprindashvili's situation.  I would restore the citation of Kashdan, but keep the citation of Golemba.
 * By the way, the article by Kashdan can be found online, here. That is another good reason for including that citation, that is, the article is easily accessible by any Wikipedia reader.  I will improve the citation of Kashdan by including a link to the online archive.
 * Also, as you have pointed out, Golemba doesn't mention that there was a tie for first place. This is not a fatal flaw, as long as we also cite a source that correctly notes the tie, and we ourselves mention the tie.
 * I do not remember the pros and cons of the Keene source. Perhaps someone else added it.  I do not have easy access to that issue of BCM.  Although I do not know or remember how good a source it was, I would not remove it, without at least looking at it to determine that it was not as good as another source.  The tournament crosstable, which confirms that there was a tie for second place, can be found on chessgames.com; we do not usually cite that website, however, because it is not considered a reliable source (there is little or no editorial oversight).
 * Your comment about Sandomierz reminds me that I was not citing a source to indicate that Sandomierz was an imporant result for Gaprindashvili. We do not usually describe, in a player's biographical article, how they got their grandmaster title, but in Gaprindashvili's case, her title has been a topic of discussion since the beginning, so we are almost obliged to say something about it; yet, in the absence of a published copy of her title application, we really can only guess which tournaments were included on that application.  I don't remember how I figured out that Sandomierz was probably important, but this article from Soviet Life of 1980 confirmed to me that it probably was.  I will try to cite that article as well as O'Connell, especially since the O'Connell reference work is not what we would usually consider a secondary source (citing it is kind of like citing chessresults.com).
 * Thanks, by the way, for adding the background material from Shahade's book. This was much needed. Bruce leverett (talk) 04:30, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. My goal is to get this to WP:GA quality for the upcoming Women in Green event. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 05:33, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
 * , do you have any thoughts about the changes I made in the last few days? I added more content and wrote a longer lead. I'm also thinking about removing the uncited information regarding the number of medals she won in the 1980s and the number of Women's Soviet Championship games she played, since I'm not able to find any sources about either of them. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 16:35, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Looks OK generally; I have a copyedit to make, in the description of the match with Bykova, which I will do shortly.
 * I'm sorry, I described earlier how to cite a source for the Women's Soviet Championships, but I need to get around to doing it. As for the number of Olympiad medals she won, this can be sourced to olimpbase.org, and I'll take care of that too.  Actually, I do not much like these dry recitations of statistics, but not everybody agrees with me about that, so  better to at least cite sources. Bruce leverett (talk) 17:06, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not so easy. USSR Women's Chess Championship credits all its data to Alexey Popovsky's Rusbase website, but the link leads to a site on which I can't find the women's championships.  I will be looking around for this stuff. Bruce leverett (talk) 18:14, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I'm not a huge fan of statistics type writing either, but I can see an argument for including it if sources can be found. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 19:06, 4 October 2023 (UTC)