Talk:O-Bahn Busway

Featured status?
Will we see this nominated for featured status? I honestly can't see a single thing wrong with it as it stands. Rebecca 12:09, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't spend a day trapped in a tiny reading room of the state library taking notes of transport department documents if I wasn't intending to go for featured ;). michael talk 12:26, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, the dedication of a Wikipedia editor. :) Rebecca 12:58, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Other O-Bahns
Shoudn't this page redirect to Guided bus and the information in this page be in Adelaide O-Bahn? There are other O-Bahns in the world, although they're not offically called O-Bahns, they are often referred to as such. Eg, http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/OBahn.htm (AtD 09:15, 25 May 2006 (UTC))
 * As the Adelaide O-Bahn is by far the most notable example of an O-Bahn - in so far as other O-Bahn's can be said to exist - it can occupy this title. However, I do wonder what the reason for the rename was. What is its official name?--cj | talk 09:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I intend to merge the histories of Adelaide O-Bahn and O-Bahn Busway.--cj | talk 09:32, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I suggest moving this article to Adelaide O-Bahn or Adelaide O-Bahn Busway, and leave O-Bahn Busway as a redirect to there. freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  09:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * What would be the point in that if the objection to this title is based on the assumption that O-Bahn is generic? I don't think any caveat is required, but if this article were to be titled anything other than what it is presently, I think it should be Adelaide O-Bahn, which appears to be what the Adelaide Metro and other organisations call it. Oh, and I've now merged the histories.--cj | talk 09:51, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The official name, throughout original transport department documents, is either O-Bahn Busway or (to a lesser extent) Northeast Busway. O-Bahn Busway predominates throughout, but there is huge variation in what it is called nowadays. It's called the Adelaide O-Bahn in a hope to attract tourists and bring to attention something uniquely Adelaidean. Just my 2c. michael talk 14:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't have a problem with the current title, but I don't see anything wrong with the last one either. Actually, I wouldn't mind just O-Bahn :).--cj | talk 15:07, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Its not worth arguing over - at least until another city creates another busway. michael talk 15:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Which was my whole point, there are other busways. Have a look at the link I posted, and Guided bus, Crawley Fastway. Google O-Bahn and you get links referring to the one in Essen, Germany. The term 'O-Bahn' literally means guided busway, and such, should point to the page about Guided Busways rather than a specific busway. (AtD 16:20, 25 May 2006 (UTC))
 * Google O-Bahn and you get a page full of links to the Adelaide O-Bahn. Essen does not rate a mention on the 1st page at all. Ozdaren 17:47, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Isn't the EMX BRT in Oregon, USA the first US O-Bahn system? certainly looking at some of the photos gives this impression! Spsmiler (talk) 19:46, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Now that I actually consider the literal meaning of O-Bahn, it seems rather silly to have the redundant "Busway"; it's the equivalent of busway busway. One doesn't say U-Bahn Subway.--cj | talk 05:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed $CJ 05:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * O-Bahn works and I've got no problem with a change. michael talk 08:16, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Someone fix pls! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.165.16.129 (talk) 09:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC).

Adelaide and Golden Grove
I feel it would be relevant to include some discussion on the impact the busses have in the city, especially Grenfell Street. Any regular commuter would know that the crowds cause real problems for pedestrians, and the busses cause problems for traffic. Grenfell Street is almost a continuous bus stop! Also, extending the track to Golden Grove wouldn’t necessarily require purchase of private property except for at the two ends. The track could simply follow Dry Creek. The problem areas would be around Golden Grove High and Modbury Primary schools. Cheers.(AtD 16:34, 25 May 2006 (UTC))
 * I had to be very careful when writing the part about the future extensions - I can't speculate (original research). Everything needs to be backed up with references; if you can find more for the Golden Grove idea I'd be glad to include a larger section. michael talk 02:05, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Map
Any chance of adding a map to this great article? Also, has it been nominated for WP:GA yet? Stevage 13:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll ask around to see if I can find a map maker. I intend to go for featured article as soon as the peer review is complete. michael talk 13:52, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

a few queries
This is well written indeed; if only all FACs were like this. However, I have a few questions.


 * "the system was introduced"—can a year or a range of years be given here, to put us in the chronological picture in the lead?
 * "future transport plans"—bit vague, and plans are always for the future. Could it be "public transport blueprint", or something like that? Presented to whom?
 * "The plan was abandoned by successive governments"—Normally, one government would scuttle a plan such as this. Can you clarify?
 * "the State Director-General of Transport spoke about ..."—The wording suggests that a reference is required.
 * A slight preponderance of the construction "was to", as in "was to be constructed". It's a small point. Tony 07:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Environment section:
 * Natural gas buses have been trialled, which begs the question as to why they haven't been taken on. Can you give just a little information?
 * By alternative energy sources, do you mean just these natural gas buses?
 * Carbon-neutral: sounds great, and I haven't gone to your reference, but I'm a little worried. This would not be a simple equation to arrive at. Is it just a grand coincidence that the amount of CO2 absorbed by the extra trees equals the amount of carbon emitted by the power stations and/or vehicles? Tony 07:49, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I do not know. I went through the notes I took in the state library and did a newspaper search but unfortunately cannot elaborate.
 * Yes. Although the system can make use of buses powered by any reasonable source of energy.
 * It is not simply a grand coincidence. The carbon-neutral point is heavily noted throughout documents emphasising the environmentally friendly nature of the O-Bahn.

michael talk 16:41, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Usage stats
I should have these up within a day or so - I'm trying to sort through a large number of papers to get through them. michael talk 15:51, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Michael, thanks for your work on this. I don't see cost on there explicitly but I assume it's on the links. I'm betting, though, it's cheaper than light rail, which is very fashionable here in the States. I'd like to draw this to our mayor (Antonio Villaraigosa)'s attention, since he's new to the job & full of energy & ideas, including some about transport. Another possibility that I like is the monorail idea that Seattle citizens have been pushing for forever. --162.119.232.105 15:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * No worries; I've got a feeling that this article is indirectly the best advertising the O-Bahn system will ever get. michael talk 15:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

"The design is unique among public transport systems; busways typically use dedicated bus lanes or separate carriageways, but the O-Bahn runs on specially built track"
I am honestly intrigued by this statement. Multiple cities in England (to cite but one, Leeds) have dedicated "lines" as used in Adelaide, albeit not on such a complete scale, and most buses are fitted with the guide wheels. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this remove the O-Bahn's claim to being unique? Looks like the point has been raised above yet the statement remains. --Harlsbottom 00:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Are any of those on a dedicated route not part of a "normal" road or tram alignment? None of the other pictures on guided bus appear to be separate routes, and the UK examples in the text all have road names, which suggests they're bus lanes on the edge of the road, rather than distinct busway-only tracks. Neither Leeds nor Ipswich mention dedicated guided-bus-only routes, and the Crawley Fastway appears to be along hthe edge of an existing road. --Scott Davis Talk 01:18, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

So why O-Bahn anyway?
I refer back to the quote above: "busways typically use dedicated bus lanes or separate carriageways, but the O-Bahn runs on specially built track." The obvious followup question is why Adelaide needs such an unusual type of busway. This would seem to me to be important enough information to put it in the opening paragraphs. After reading this article, I can infer the advantage the technology offers Essen, Germany. Namely, that the preexisting tram tunnel is narrower than a typical busway, so the buses must be guided to avoid hitting the tunnel wall or other traffic. It is not at all clear from the article what advantage the technology offers Adelaide over a more conventional busway. DHimmelspach 01:19, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The O-Bahn track was originally going to be used for only a short length at the start (city end) of the route, done so because of the narrow corridor and the desire to not affect the natural environment. Michael talk 01:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Picture request
What does a "sump-buster" look like ? Wizzy… ☎   10:45, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * More or less a big block that'll rip your oil tank out but spare the rest of your car. If you want a photo, give or take a week for me to stumble over there with my camera. michael talk 10:52, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

German word "Bahn"
The Article says in the introduction "...the German bahn ("way" or "road") ...". While this is technically correct (Bahn can indeed mean "way" or "road"), in this context the word Bahn probably refers to "railway", which is another common meaning (the largest German railway company is called "Deutsche Bahn"). I'm not editing this myself, since I don't want to mess with an excellent article, but maybe someone else could do that. --84.172.245.112 11:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC) (from Germany)
 * I noticed that too. Better translations are railway/tram/train. The german term refers to a specific train as well as to the whole transportation system ambiguously. 84.191.207.116 23:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC) (Germany)
 * In this case, the term "O-Bahn" was apparently chosen because of its similarity with the existing S-Bahn ((sub)urban railway) and U-Bahn (underground railway). I changed the meaning of "bahn" from "way"/"raod" to "railway" in the article and mentioned the U-and S-Bahn, but feel free to find a better wording. --Sascha Claus &#x2709; 14:52, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

POV
This article focuses overly on Australia. The article only states in passing that the system was developed in Germany, but never mentions Germany again afterwards. Surely if the system was developed for Essen, the O-Bahn must either still be there (in which case half of the article should topicalise it), or it isn't, in which case the article is omitting the important information as to what happened to it and why. &mdash; Timwi 12:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It's referring to the busway, not the O-Bahn idea itself. michael talk 12:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Nonetheless O-Bahn redirects here. Rich Farmbrough 14:59 14 August 2006 (GMT).

Vandalism
The image at the start of this page appears to have been vandalised, I am not sure how to fix this.
 * How so? She's locked. michael talk 13:18, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I've reverted that; if you're still seeing the picture, you may need to bypass your browser's cache by forcing a reload (usually shift or control plus F5). Thanks for both your concern and your time. :) Luna Santin 13:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

question
Should there be a map for the route? Or will that be considered too tour-guidey? By the way, congratulations to everybody who brought this to featured status – so many Adelaide-related articles are featured! Excellent work. &mdash; riana_dzasta • t • c • e  • ER • 14:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, there should be, and I'm aware of this. If someone is willing to draw one, that'd be great! michael talk 14:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

O-Bahn Proposals elsewhere in Australia
I have some information on a proposal to build the present Darling Harbour light rail route in Sydney as an O-Bahn back in the late 80s, but I'm not sure where to put this in the article. Any ideas? JRG 05:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Not in Australia, but a guided busway was considered for the North Wellington Public Transport Project in New Zealand. Although locally popular, central government halted the study and confirmed retaining rail. Bigglesjames (talk) 01:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Track Photos
I've added a photo of the actual track as the article was lacking one. It is a section of test track located next to the bridge on Grand Junction Rd, Holden Hill. If anyone knows more about the function of this section of track it would be greatly appreciated if the info was added. Clinton1550 (talk) 10:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Possibly the training track. Where is said image uploaded? Douglas (talk) 10:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I hope this is what you mean Clinton1550 (talk) 10:57, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Incidents section expansion required
I must say, I was quite surprised this morning to hear of the molotov cocktail smashing through a bus window on the o-bahn. There's also been the rock throwing issues, dislodgements, cars entering etc. I think the section could do with some expansion. Timeshift (talk) 07:23, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Geographic error or contradiction in "Interchanges"
In that Section, Klemzig is named part of Payneham, linked to Norwood Payneham & St Peters (this link uses corrected spelling) but in the article Klemzig it is in the infobox that its LGA is City of Port Adelaide Enfield. Considering Norwood Payneham & St Peters is also an LGA as per its article, this means that at least one error must be in these three places because they contradict. Could please someone with good knowledge of South Australia administrative geography correct it/them? 87.188.61.183 (talk) 17:50, 3 August 2011 (UTC) "The purchase of 160 buses at a cost of $120 million"... Is that really the correct cost. It works out at AUD750,000 per bus which seems a very high price. And presumably this should be updated since we are near the end of the purchase period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.194.138 (talk) 08:12, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

FA Concerns
I don't think this meets the FA criteria anymore since there is an outdated tag along with dead links. Main problems are prose, sourcing (including dead links) and comprehensiveness. If anybody needs help improving it, please let me know. JJ98 (Talk) 06:36, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I think a couple of us are gradually addressing the concerns we know about, but as we are not experts in FA criteria, we have probably missed things the experts see as "obvious". Any specific concerns or assistance would be welcome. --Scott Davis Talk 09:32, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * No problem, I think I have few of the references at Google books. Paragraphs of the two sentences in the Development section is unsourced. Otherwise the prose is not too bad. JJ98 (Talk) 21:03, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Services
Shouldn't there be a section enumerating which bus services/routes of Metro run along the busway? I went to Metro's website, and it seems that this isn't a seperate service, in itself, rather a piece of infrastructure shared by a number of different bus services/routes. I guess my suggestion is that perhaps it should be made more clear in the article that this isn't a seperate mode of transit or service within Metro. --Criticalthinker (talk) 08:57, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

WikiMiniAtlas
I looked at the miniatlas from the link by the coordinates, and the O-Bahn is missing. It appears that Tag:highway=bus_guideway from OpenStreetMap are not rendered in the WikiMiniAtlas at present. The course can be detected by following the smooth edges of reserves and parallel roads, but is missing in the WMA compared to OSM. --Scott Davis Talk 01:36, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Fixed quickly by once I submitted a WikiMiniAtlas issue on GitHub. Thank you. --Scott Davis Talk 21:18, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

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Links to other languages
it:O-Bahn should NOT linguistically linked to O-Bahn Busway but to guided bus. There may be others. The links to and from German French and Spanish are pertinent. But then there already is it:Autobus guidato which is linked to guided bus. My knowledge of Spanish allows me to get the drift of Italian and Portuguese. Peter Horn User talk 20:42, 5 October 2021 (UTC) Peter Horn User talk 00:49, 6 October 2021 (UTC) Peter Horn User talk 00:53, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * it:O-Bahn is a screw up. Peter Horn User talk 01:49, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I can't link it:O-Bahn to guided bus as the latter is already linked to it:Autobus guidato. Essentially they should consider merging the two articles. Bermicourt (talk) 08:29, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Route table
O-Bahn Busway Would it be possible to clean up the bottom of the route table? Peter Horn User talk 01:45, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Benefits section needed
Nowhere are the benefits over a normal road described. Why build this? A driver is still needed. Is is cheaper to build and run? 103.8.140.3 (talk) 23:46, 9 April 2024 (UTC)