Talk:Oji-Cree language

Anishinaabemowin language Userbox
Aaniin, with great effort from User:Miskwito, we now have the oj series of Anishinaabemowin language userboxes. On the WP:IPNA/Nish page, we have a matrix of the possible categories for the oj series and the major dialect groupings. You can now add to your Userpage one of the oj userboxes that are available or you can help create a userbox for the dialect of your interest. Please see Wikipedia_talk:Babel for the full discussion. Miigwech. CJLippert 20:59, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Name
Quick question: why isn't this Anishinininiimowin rather than Anishininimowin? I keep seeing both used, in different places. Are both correct, or what's the situation? --Miskwito 21:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think we have several thing going on here. It should be either the Anishinini language (1 "i", no -mo- but with "language") or Anishininiimowin (2 "i"s and a -mo- but without "language"), but not Anishininimowin language -- just as it is the Anishinaabe language or Anishinaabemowin, but not the Anishinaabemowin language .  CJLippert 00:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 * In that case, for consistancy with Anishinaabe language, Anishinini language seems most reasonable. --Miskwito 00:11, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Moved. CJLippert 18:39, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Article rename guidance, please
This sub-section moved from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America to here.

As many who generally work on the various WP:IPNA/Nish-related articles are not around for a decision, we need guidance from the larger WP:IPNA community. We have an article that needs to be renamed... but to what?

The current article name is Anishinini language; its native name is Anishininiimowin. Its ISO-3 name is Severn Ojibwa language (OJS) though this name is considered inappropriate in many circles. Statistics Canada uses Oji-Cree language, though this is not the official name, it stirs-up considerably less criticism than the "Severn Ojibwa language" name.

It has 4 (or 6) major dialects: Sandy Lake language, Severn River language, Island Lake language, Winisk River language (... and Albany River language and Berens River language, if they are counted as part of the OJS instead of Northwestern Ojibwa language (OJB)).

Should the article be renamed "Oji-Cree language" with bunch of redirects to it as this is the name many in Canada would know it as, or should the article be renamed "Severn Ojibwa language" with bunch of redirects to it as this is the official ISO-3 name, or should the present name of "Anishinini language" be kept with bunch of redirects to it as this would be the Anglicised rendition of Anishininiimowin? CJLippert (talk) 15:52, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


 * You don't describe any criticism of the name "Anishinini language." If the alternatives meet with criticism, but the existing name does not, I am puzzled as to why there is a perceived need to change the name. Is it a neologism? — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 16:06, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Looking around further, I see that "Anishinaabe language" has been moved to Ojibwa-Potawatomi-Ottawa language. It appears that "Anishinini language" is a protologistic translation of Anishininiimowin and should be avoided. I think the article should be moved to Oji-Cree language with redirects. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 16:24, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I think "Anishinini language" is fine. Anishininiimowin, Severn Ojibwe language, and Oji-Cree language should all redirect to it.  vıd ıoman  16:11, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There's a table of some authoritative indigenous language names here, recapitulating CJLippert's explanation. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 16:36, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Moved article to Oji-Cree language. CJLippert (talk) 17:27, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * We have a linguist who is wanting the article renamed to Severn Ojibwa language as this is the ISO-3 name, and he seems quite insistent about it, but he seems unwilling to just change the name. What shall we do? CJLippert (talk) 19:50, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I suggest you start a discussion on the talk page of the language, and post it somewhere (I think there is a page for renaming discussions) to get some outside opinions. Aside from "official" names, Wikipedia also allows the most common name for a subject to be its title.  vıd ıoman  21:54, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Oji-Cree name
The name used in the Canadian Oxford, which is the authoritative source for most Canadian newspapers, Canadian government and also the Canadian Press, is Oji-Cree. Why not use Oji-Cree language as the title of the article? What English-language style and usage guides recommend "Anishinini language" over Oji-Cree as the English name?--206.248.172.247 (talk) 22:13, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * See the discussion above. However, if the ISO name is used, it would instead be Severn Ojibwa language, not Oji-Cree language. CJLippert (talk) 03:08, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, the names used in standard linguistic reference works should be the ones used. Nearly every standard linguistic work refers to this Ojibwa variety as Severn Ojibwa.  That should be the name used. (Taivo (talk) 02:16, 7 November 2008 (UTC))
 * Please move this page to Severn Ojibwa language. That is the language used by all linguistic sources for this languages.  The use of the Canadian Oxford Dictionary as a valid source for linguistic terminology is inappropriate.  Linguistic sources are the appropriate places to look for language appelations.  "Oji-Cree" is unrecognizable to a linguist. (Taivo (talk) 09:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC))

Oji-Cree v. Severn Ojibwa
copied from Ethnic_and_cultural_conflicts_noticeboard


 * Problem
 * There are indigenous peoples of North America called the Anishinini located between the Cree in the north and the Ojibwa in the south, located across northern Ontario to central Manitoba. Culturally, these people identify themselves as "Cree" but linguistically, their language is closer to Ojibwa. Linguistically, they are called "Severn Ojibwa," but culturally, this group take the "Ojibwa" identification as an insult and much prefer the "Cree" identification. The Canadian government's solution is to call them "Oji-Cree" and in Canada, this has become the accepted term for this group as well as the name for their language. However, all the anthropological works still refer to them as "Cree" and all the linguistic works refer to them as "Severn Ojibwa".


 * Resolution that is needed
 * We have a potential ideological conflict brewing that needs to be nipped in the bud. Pointing out a any appropriate Wikipedia policy would be helpful. In the article covering this ethnic group, the article was created as Oji-Cree. When the language article was created, it was originally Severn Ojibwa language, but due to the cultural tention associated with "Ojibwa" in the name, the article was renamed as Anishinini language, but as this name is considered a neologism, the article was then renamed as Oji-Cree language. There is a request to have the original Severn Ojibwa language name restored for the language article as this is the official ISO-3 name. As both the "Severn Ojibwa language" title and the "Oji-Cree language" title are verifyable, do we go with the official ISO-3 name or do we go with the culturally sensitive name that is official in Canada? (Discussion can be found at WP:IPNA talk, at article's talk, and at main language's talk) CJLippert (talk) 15:12, 10 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the name to go with is Oji-Cree, as this is the English word which is in use in the area. http://www.windigo.on.ca/annualreport.htm, http://www.nan.on.ca/article/land-culture-community-120.asp . The word Oji-Cree is current, AFAIK, among Natives and Non-Natives alike. There's a definite line between Cree, Ojibway, and Oji-Cree, and speakers of the languages are very aware of the differences. Severn Ojibway gets a some usage in linguistic materials, as it rightly indicates that it is one of many Ojibway dialects. However, linguistic nomenclature for Northern Algonquian languages is very slippery: are Saulteaux, Algonquin, and Oji-Cree dialects of Ojibway or separate languages? Why is East Cree considered “Cree” while Naskapi isn’t (they are closer to each other than to any other “Cree” dialects). And for that matter, Atikamekw is arguably closer to “Cree” than “East Cree”. Labelling and dividing dialect chains is a risky business, and one which would not be profitable here. Best to follow on-the-ground political reality. And that would most likely be Oji-Cree (best to call people what they call themselves). Personally, I don't think the ISO designation is relevant, as a number of their language identifications are suspect. Anishinini or Anishininimowin (or derivations thereof) are not recognisable English words –yet– and would not be appropriate here. I disagree with the comment “all the anthropological works still refer to them as ‘Cree’ and all the linguistic works refer to them as ‘Severn Ojibwa’.” languagegeek (talk) 22:10, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally, I prefer "Severn Ojibwa" since I am, and always have been, a linguist and we tend to draw a clear distinction between cultural designations and linguistic designations. Not all "Oji-Cree" speak "Severn Ojibwa".  People denigrate ISO 639-3, but it is actually becoming the most accurate reference through its process of ongoing revision.  Until there is a better reference, ISO 639-3 should be the baseline.  I don't see any problem with a statement such as "Severn Ojibwa is the variety of Ojibwa spoken by the Oji-Cree community". (Taivo (talk) 15:30, 11 November 2008 (UTC))


 * Encyclopedias tend to use more formal/official titles for article names, and based on this ‘Severn Ojibwa’ is the best title for this Wikipedia article since it has the gravitas of informed usage by linguists behind it, and has the virtue of making it clear that the entity in question is a variety of Ojibwe. The best course would be to use ‘Severn Ojibwa’ with cross-references from other terms. Terms such as ‘Anihshinini language’ or ‘Anishininiimowin’ have no currency at all in English. Severn speakers in my experience are aware of the similarities between their language and other varieties of Ojibwe, and I disagree with the assertion above that Ojibwe is considered an ‘insult.’ We should also go back to the spelling ‘Ojibwe’ that is the norm among linguistics working on “Ojibwe” (this spelling was used in earlier versions of some Wikipedia articles and is retained in at least one), but that’s another issue.
 * There is merit in utilizing ISO 639-3 as a standard for naming language articles in Wikipedia wherever possible, since it provides a standardized framework that can be enhanced and amended through a formal process. With respect to Ojibwe, the ISO titles can be improved in a number of ways, particularly where they do not follow general linguistic practice (e.g. ‘Western Ojibwe’ is most commonly referred to as ‘Saulteaux’ by linguists working on Ojibwe, identifiable varieties such as Nipissing are not recognized, etc). However we could do worse.
 * There is no satisfactory universally accepted term in English for the dialect in question. I would not put a lot of stock in the usage of the Canadian Oxford; this is a linguistically uninformed choice on their part in my opinion; for the same reason there is little value in the Canadian government’s usages, which have changed over time.
 * The term ‘Oji-Cree’ is linguistically misleading since it implies some kind of equality between the Ojibwe and the Cree parts, but linguistically it is quite clear that Severn Ojibwe is an Ojibwe dialect with significant (but hardly overwhelming) amounts of Cree vocabulary, and modest amounts of Cree morphology. Valentine’s very fine 1994 study “Ojibwe Dialect Relationships” (PhD dissertation, U of Texas) makes this clear. Severn also has fairly significant relationships with Algonquin Ojibwe spoken a considerable way to the east, but nobody's suggesting that Severn be called "Oji-Cree-Algonquin."
 * With respect to some comments above: the Berens River communities (Pikangikam and Poplar Hill) are not Severn at all, the break is very sharp – Pikangikam has more southerly morphological and lexical features not shared with Severn. Albany River and similar communities (e.g. Fort Hope, Ogoki, Cat Lake, Lansdowne House) have fewer Severn features, and are intermediate between Severn and more southerly Ojibwe varieties. I would place them at the periphery of core Severn. (Valentine has some nice discussion of how this plays out as one goes north to south in the area north of Lake Nipigon).


 * So if we want to vote, I say Severn Ojibwa (or better, Ojibwe) with cross-references.
 * John Jomeara421 (talk) 02:32, 24 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The Canadian Encyclopedia says: Ojibwa (Algonquin, Central, Eastern, Northwestern, Ottawa [Odawa], Saukeaux, and Severn dialects).
 * Google search hit counts: "Oji-Cree" language = 10,700; "Severn Ojibwe" language = 1,020; "Severn Ojibwa" language = 344; "Anishininiimowin" = 254; "Anishinini language" = 202; "Anihshininiimowin" = 90; "Anihshinini language" = 0
 * Rand Valentine's Nishnaabemwin Reference Grammar (ISBN 0802083897) says: "Oji-Cree (Anihshininiimowin, Severn Ojibwe). There is a variety of Anishinaabemowin spoken in northwestern Ontario that is commonly identified in English by its own speakers as Cree, a sister language of Anishinaabemowin found in the Hudson Bay lowlands adjacent to this dialect area. Oji-Cree is also used popularity to designate this dialect, because of its allegedly being a mixture of Ojibwe and Cree.... This variety is sometimes referred to as Severn (River) Ojibwe by linguists, in reference to one of the river systems defining its geographical locus...."
 * CJLippert (talk) 19:48, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Severn Ojibw(a/e) is the superior and most descriptive term. Oji-Cree refers to the people, perhaps, but not to the language.  Google hits is hardly a "scientific" reference since my 13-year-old could post something on the internet.  Linguists are nearly universal in their use of "Severn Ojibw(a/e)" for this language variety. (Taivo (talk) 20:30, 26 November 2008 (UTC))
 * Actually, your Google search was performed incorrectly. You must search "Oji-Cree language" (the position of the quotation marks is critical) in order to narrow the search to only those articles which deal with language or else you can also get articles that are culturally based.  "Oji-Cree language" only yields 356 hits while "Severn Ojibwa language" yields 342 hits ("Severn Ojibwe language" yields zero hits). (Taivo (talk) 20:37, 26 November 2008 (UTC))

Vocabulary Examples
A few comments on the SEVERN OJIBWE words in the "Vocabulary Examples" section, in the second column. I have given a number of references to show that it is possible to adhere to Wikipedia expectations on Verifiability even in articles on Ojibwe. My purpose here is to show how this section could be improved by making it more accurate with respect to Severn examples.

It should be noted that many syllabic writers do not bother to indicate vowel length, nasals before consonants, or  before a consonant. For fluent speakers, the underdifferentation that these orthographic practices induce is not an issue since they are usually able to use context to disambiguate potentially ambiguous passages.

1. In most SEVERN OJIBWE communities the ‘Western’ finals are used, not the ‘Eastern’ finals shown here (the Eastern finals are mostly used in communities with a strong Anglican tradition and in particular to the south and east of the Severn Ojibwe area, but there is a lot of variability). Canadian Aboriginal syllabics discusses the differences between the two types of finals. See Fiero (1976, cited below) for a summary of the usage situation circa mid 1970s but there is more variation than is indicated there.

2. The word for ‘loon’ (and the plural) are spelled incorrectly, both in Roman and syllabics. There are two sub-varieties within SEVERN OJIBWE, one in which a nasal before an obstruent (p, t, k, c, sh) is retained, and another in which a nasal before an obstruent is deleted. Writing an orthographic  at the ‘deletion’ site is incorrect. One might say that the  is ‘silent.’

3. Sub-dialect one is spoken in e.g. Kingfisher Lake, Ontario, as well as the more southwestern SEVERN communities: Sandy Lake, Deer Lake, etc. Here this word would be written alphabetically (writing long vowels double): maank.

In syllabic writing it is common to not bother writing the  even when it is pronounced, but there is considerable variation on this, and many other points of orthography. However, competent syllabic writings would NOT put the symbol for  before the obstruent consonant.

So the word ‘loon’ would be written: (a) with pointed syllabics to indicate vowel length in the first syllable and  written: ᒫᐣᐠ OR (b) more commonly without length of first syllable indicated: ᒪᐣᐠ OR (c) with nasal not written even though pronounced  ᒫᐠ OR ᒪᐠ

4. Sub-dialect two is spoken in e.g. Big Trout Lake and Bearskin Lake. Here the nasal is not pronounced, but the convention in some written materials is to write the nasal anyway in the roman orthgraphy: maank (e.g. Beardy 1996, a textbook used for different varieties of Severn Ojibwe).

The spelling maahk in the table with  used to represent the location of the nasal that occurs in other areas is an error, but similar errors occurs in a few places in Evelyn Todd’s (1970) very useful dissertation. In the syllabic orthography the deleted  is never indicated by writers from these communities: ᒫᐠ OR ᒪᐠ

5. In the word for ‘sun, moon’ the ‘s’ is fortis (or ‘strong’) and so is conventionally written with an  before it: piihsim if we are trying to be phonemically consistent.

Otherwise, lenis (or ‘weak’) ‘s’ would be subject to intervocalic voicing, which doesn’t occur in this word. In syllabics we could write this word as: ᐲᐦᓯᒼ OR ᐱᐦᓯᒼ (without vowel length indicated in the first syllable). Many syllabic writers don’t bother to use the marker for : ᐱᓯᒼ

Note that in at least some varieties of Cree spoken along the James Bay Coast there is no indication of  before ‘s’ at all in words like ‘sun, moon’, and it is not written (Ellis 1983).

6. Finally, the word written inini in Severn has as its primary meaning ‘person, human being’ (as in most Cree; Ellis give the Moose Cree meaning as 'person, Indian'); the general word for ‘man’ in Severn is Roman naape, syllabic ᓈᐯ (with vowel length indicated in first syllable) OR ᓇᐯ  (no vowel length in first syllable); the corresponding Cree term (all dialects is naapew.

References: 

Beardy, Tom. 1996. Introductory Ojibwe: Parts One and Two in Severn Dialect. Thunder Bay: Native Language Instructors’ Program, Lakehead University.

Ellis, C.D. 1983. Spoken Cree. Revised Edition. Edmonton: Pica Pica Press.

Fiero, Charles. 1976. “Style Manual for Syllabics.” Barbara Burnaby, ed., Promoting Native Writing Systems in Canada. Toronto: OISE Press.

Todd, Evelyn. 1970. A grammar of the Ojibwa language: the Severn dialect. PhD, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.

John Jomeara421 (talk) 02:33, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * response to 1 -- yes there are variability, but the material that I have access to gives this in eastern finals, not western, though western finals with eastern-style w-dot is the most common around there... oh wait, I see that I have mistyped and used western w-dot instead of eastern w-dot. That needs to be fixed.
 * response to 2 -- the material that I have adds in the h, so if in the Fiero orthography, I assume that particular person pronounces it as maak and not maag... though the maag would make more sense.
 * response to 3 -- see response to 2
 * response to 4 -- see response to 2
 * response to 5 -- the material that I have does not add in the h, so if in the Fiero orthography, I assume that particular person pronounces it as biizim and not biisim. This is not a word I am familiar with, so I just have to take it at face value. (Unlike the maak (maahk) v. maag (maak) where I can say I agree with you that maag makes more sense though that is not what the material says, here I cannot make a comment.)
 * response to 6 -- I agree with you, but that is not what the material I have says.
 * I wonder if the person whom I got the information was heavily influenced by Cree? Well, I think the bottom line is that the information I have access to is not overly reliable, and information south of the border is really scant. So any, more reliable source you have access to there north of the border would be very helpful. Be bold and edit... or encourage one of the Lakehead University freshman class writing class partake in the Wikipedia:School and university projects to drastically improve various articles, including this one. CJLippert (talk) 03:51, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * CJ Lippert, the problem here is that you seem to dispute the substance of my comments (my remarks being based on cited material). Yet you base your comments on what you refer to as "the materials that I have..." and "the information I have access to is not overly reliable..." but you don't say what those materials are, or give a citation that would support your comments. The Wikipedia standard is "verifiability" - particularly since you seem not to be accepting what I have posted it makes sense to say what your sources are. I posted this on the Talk page so you could clarify the material posted in the entry.
 * I did confuse things slightly by not stating clearly that I was following the northern roman orthography, which uses "p, t, k" etc rather than "b, d, g" etc, which is a source of confusion - in the standard southern orthography these words would be "maang"(in the dialect that retains the 'n') and "biisim" etc.

John Jomeara421 (talk) 01:44, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I notice that the article does not discuss the determination of gender in the Severn Ojibwe language, which I think is a very crucial point to helping people get an understanding of how to properly use nouns, commands, and verbs. I have begun an introduction to this principle in my sandbox Tking1974 (talk) 02:27, 10 March 2014 (UTC) Thom User:tking1974/sandbox

Documentation Please For These Statements
I am preparing expanded opening material for this article. There are two statements in the current version that require documentation to support the Wikipedia Verifiability criterion. If no support for them is forthcoming I will remove them.

1. "The Oji-Cree are a people of mixed Ojibwe and Cree descent." This statement does not appear to be consistent with what is in the published literature, but if there is documentation otherwise, please furnish it.

2. "...but its literary tradition is closer to Cree." Again, this needs confirmation.

I will also reword and clarify the following, which in its current form is not very transparent:

"It is closely related to Anishinaabemowin morphologically, and more specifically with that of the Algonquin language of Anishinaabemowin, ..."

I will also expand the treatment of syllabics.

John Jomeara421 (talk) 01:52, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Two Steps Forward, Three Steps Backward
CJ Lippert, unfortunately when you modified the new third paragraph of this article that I added recently, you apparently didn't bother to read what it said first. This paragraph referred to the self-designation of the people in their own language (i.e., what they all themselves, not what they call their language), and I supported the information in that paragraph with appropriate citations. The changes that you made render the paragraph nonsensical, and further you do not provide any documentation. I suggest restoring the paragraph to its original form, and then adding a sentence about the language name at the end of the paragraph (on the other hand, that is really redundant, since that information is provided in the first sentence of the article). As well, I should point out that there is not documetation which indicates the use of "Anishinaabemowin" by Severn speakers so that should be removed. If you feel moved to 'improve' it some more, at least read it first, and provide some sources that support what you are writing.

Similarly, in the "Vocabulary Examples" section, apparently inspired by the new and appropriately documented information that I added on Island Lake language, you added some Island Lake vocabulary examples. But as in the past, you do not provide any documentation for the forms you include. So, as in the past, please provide appropriate documentation. As I have pointed out previously you do not document your sources for the words and orthography that you provide, and further the word for 'loon(s)' in Severn is still written incorrectly.

On the other hand, thank you for correcting the typo in "Ontario."

John Jomeara421 (talk) 05:50, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * CJ Lippert, my posting above was intemperate in both tone and content. I will endeavour in the future to make any comments I post more constructive and less verbally aggressive.

Thanks. John. Jomeara421 (talk) 00:08, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion re Orthography for this Entry
Severn Ojibwe is not generally written by its speakers using a Roman (alphabetic) system; they generally prefer to use the syllabic system. There is a Northern Roman system that has been used at times in various materials but does not have much currency.

On the other hand, there is a more broadly used Roman system that is used fairly widely around the Great Lakes in both the US and Canada, and that is fairly easy to interpret for people who do not speak Ojibwe. This is of course the 'double-vowel' system attributed to Charles Fiero, which is widely used in a large amount of published material etc.

It is straightforward to to transliterate from one Roman system to the other, but the northern system is more obscure to speakers of English because of its use of 'h' before a consonant to represent 'fortis' or 'strong' consonants.

I suggest that Ojibwa words in this entry be written in the general southern system to place less of a burden on non-linguist readers, so they don't have to try and deal with multiple alphabetic systems. Where there is a need to draw attention to a specific Severn pronunciation feature, then a more detailed phonetic transcription could be used (or equivalently, the northern Roman system). This follows the practice of R. Valentine in his excellent 1994 study of Ojibwe dialectology - he writes Severn words in the more general system, and only does something more specific when needed.

I can write up a paragraph explaining the orthographic practices being employed, with links to the Wikipedia articles on writing systems, as appropriate.

I'm making this suggestion because I think that reducing the burden on readers is a good idea, particularly given that there is no recognized (Roman) orthographic standard for Severn Ojibwe, and also given that there will still be ways to accommodate the requisite amount of detail.

Thanks. John Jomeara421 (talk) 06:04, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * For ducuments in OJS I have access to, originating from Ontario and Manitoba, the hybrid or NAN roman is what I have consistently have seen. This isn't just with Nishnawbe Aski Nation materials, but also with Wawatay materials, and the various liturature published by the Government of Mantoba. Since all those publishers, when not using syllabics, use this orthography, this is the orthography that was shown. If the Fiero orthography is used, that is fine too, as it would better correlate with the rest of the OJI, but Fiero orthography is something I have seen not that far north. Maybe a side-step to the WP:IPNA/Nish and have a wider discussion with the rest of the participants would be a good idea. For the Ojibwe (OJC, OJB, CIW, OTW and OJG), we have been systematically showing words with Fiero or Rhodes orthography, but other orthographies for POT, OJW, ALQ and OJS. Maybe a further explanation in the Ojibwe writing systems is also warrented. CJLippert (talk) 15:58, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Part of the issue I am trying to address is this: the general southern Roman writing system is not an official standard, but it is now effectively a de facto standard, in that it is the norm in several dictionaries, many text collections, grammars, etc, and it is used and accepted by many language teachers. For Severn, though, there is no official or emergent standard. As well, it appears that there are a number of variants that share some features such as writing fortis consonant clusters with two symbols (i.e.  plus consonant> but differ significantly in e.g. how vowel length is marked.


 * Apparently there are other local variants in northern Manitoba that I assume use the macron to mark vowel length, etc. The entry on Ojibwe writing sytems is not very helpful, to say nothing of the peculiar headings. I have not seen samples of materials from Island Lake that reflect a northern orthography, so if there are some it would be good to have some references.


 * In northern Ontario, there is a reasonably consistent northern Roman orthography that is found in e.g. Tom Beardy's Introductory Ojibwe textbooks, Cecilia Sugarhead's Lansdowne House texts (not core Severn, but quite close), and in the Canadian Bible Society's "Oshkimasina'ikan..." (the latter has some minor differences from the other two, but only about things like hyphenation conventions). These are all listed in the References for the article. This system writes vowels double; uses the consonants p, t, k, c, s, sh, m, n, w, y, h; and writes 'fortis' or 'strong' clusters as sequences of  plus consonant. A fairly completely description can be found in the introduction to the Cecilia Sugarhead volume cited above.


 * This orthography is not in my experience used in any consistent way by users in northern Ontario, and many words that are written in Roman often are an orthographic folk phonetic hodge podge, such as the name for the community formerly known as Big Trout Lake. I'll have to check a print copy of Wawatay News but my recollection is that they don't print stories in Roman.


 * You mention various sources from Manitoba and Ontario that allegedly use this or that orthography, but as usual you don't cite any actual references that others could use to verify your assertions. So in my view they don't count for much.


 * I am perfectly fine writing Severn in the northern Roman orthography as reflected in the materials cited above, I do it all the time and it makes sense to me. I am quite familiar with Severn Ojibwe, and am prepared to contribute a lot more material to this article, and in fact have some ready to go right now. But getting into a situation where the orthography is continually being changed in a semi- or un- informed way according to ad hoc or non-existent 'standards' (or other people's perceptions of these) does not appeal to me, and if that is the case I will move and work on other pages instead.


 * Thanks. John. Jomeara421 (talk) 18:14, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Here is an internet link to a Manitoba governmental document: www.gov.mb.ca/conservation/wno/pdf/espi_status_report_2004_oji_cree.pdf . For examples of the literature published by NAN, go to the Lakehead University's bookstore and take a peek at the "Glossary of Northwestern Ojibwe Legal Terms" for sale there (and you might even have a copy on your shelf). For Wawatay, the articles are definitely in either English or in Oji-Cree (using Syllabic) but their language-learning promotion materials are in roman, and it uses the same NAN orthography already mentioned (which you can find snippet samples at http://www.wawataynews.ca/ojicree_learning ). You can't take ownership of this article (but neither can I or anyone else). Wikipedia is collaborative and if the wording isn't quite right that causes edit wars, then we need to figure out a way to say something in such a way to quell such edit wars. If you're not willing to have what you've contributed edited, and re-edited by others, then this is not the place for you. However, what you have contributed so far has been extremely helpful, so the only advise I have is just enjoy yourself while editing. If things need to be added in snippets, then do so. :) CJLippert (talk) 20:51, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Thankyou
Thankyou 129.222.140.15 (talk) 02:58, 29 January 2023 (UTC)