Talk:Old Firm/Archive 1

Old Firm plans to join English Premiership

Does anyone have enough knowledge to write about the Old Firm's attempts to break away and join the English Premier League? Grunners 19:52, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Both Celtic and Rangers have expressed desires to leave the Scottish league and move to the premiership, however, this seems to be a one sided affair. Reports have suggested that premiership clubs voted 20 - 0 last year to reject the admittance of the old firm into the premiership (why would some of the smaller clubs effectively reduce their chances of staying in the league and the bigger clubs reduce their chances of playing in Europe). Add to this the need for both national football associations (SFA & FA) and Europes governing body (UEFA) to agree to the switch it is unlikley that either Celtic or Rangers will be playing in the premiership in the forseable future. The only hope, it appears, is that the broadcasters SKY feel that the Old Firm would improve the premiership and demand change. Their (SKY) position is strong through the amount of money that clubs receive for television rights. The main reason for the desire of the old firm to switch leagues is mainly financial as the lesser premiership clubs receive much more in T.V revenue than Rangers and Celtic. Both clubs feel that this lack of revenue and competition is holding them back and not allowing them to realise their full potential both financially and on the pitch. unsigned comment

It's understood that the only way that rangers and celtic could join would be to create a new team and be selected to join the lowest english league (i believe that would be league 2) and work their way through the leagues. That would be difficult also as there are many non league sides that would have an objection.

90 minute bigots

Opinions on adding this ??

Dont know what extra relavence this would have as it is universal in world football

Irish and British flags

I was under the impression that another element of this rivalry was the element of Irish nationalism vs British nationalism (and consequently the issue of Northern Ireland), exemplified by the tricolours and union jacks that are flown at matches. Assuming I'm not wrong on this, someone who knows what they're talking about should write something about it, it's not currently mentioned.

Or just plain bloody-mindedness. The two sides have been noted flying the Israeli and Palestinian flags, too. -- Arwel 15:14, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• • The last time I checked Glasgow was in the United Kingdom. Being proud to be British and Scottish is different from British nationalism. Are Rangers popular with the jewish community in Glasgow? If so, this may be where the israeli flags come from.Jimbo79 23:13, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Aughavey 1 July 2005 21:37 (UTC) It is e reflex response to Palestinian flags being flown in Republican areas of Northern Ireland and joint IRA-Palestinian murals in Belfast and conferences / organisations such as the Irish-Palestinian solidarity Group.

Celtic was founded by an Irish catholic priest to raise money for charity and so it is seen as an Irish catholic club. Rangers were seen as a Protestant club as for the majority of their history (around one hundred years) they had no catholic players or managers. There is a large population of Irish emigants in the West of Scotland, the vast majority of whom are catholic. During The Troubles in Northern Ireland many people in Glasgow took sides, the majority of catholics supported the IRA (in cause if not in meathods), the protetants largely took the side of the British Government. These views were expressed at matches by flying the flags of the side they supported.This was the case 30 or 40 years ago but now the flags are largely flowen because of tradition and the carry the colours of the appropriate teams. Palistine flags are flown as Irish nationalists identifie with the Palistinian struggle as similar to their own. Istaili flags were flown in response to this.

BBO 10:33, 3 May 2007 (UTC) Charity was one aspect of Celtic's founding. Another was to keep Catholics away from the Protestant churches, who were trying to help them. And, contrary to popular belief, Rangers had quite a few Catholic players before Maurice Johnston. Rangers signed their first Catholic player, Pat Lafferty, before Celtic even existed and other Catholic players such as Archie Kyle, Willie "Doc" Kivlichan and Joe Donnachie played for the club over the years. The Catholic youngster John Spencer was already at Rangers when Johnston signed and the American Catholic, Hugh O'Neill, was a Rangers player around a decade earlier. BBO 10:33, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

NPOV

I removed the neutrality tag, because I think a good job of making this as neutral as possibl has worked. Just keep watching it and it should be fine.--Gangster Octopus 8 July 2005 03:24 (UTC)

Results

One thing that should surely be listed on this page - how many times have the clubs played each other, and how many times have each side won, how many have been score draws, and how many no-score draws? -- Tivedshambo (talk) 19:35, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I've found a site that answers that question. Have added it to the article. — Tivedshambo (talk) 19:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Scotland and the Old Firm

This section is poor - all conjecture, tenuously based upon fact.

Even in cities such as Edinburgh and Dundee, there is a far larger Old Firm fanbase than the cities' own clubs (Hearts & Hibs, and Dundee & Dundee United respectively).

Are there any stats to back up this wild speculation? Also, this paragraph doesn't work:

Due to this, other clubs in Scottish football have traditionally had far fewer football successes (except for a brief period in the 1980s), supporters and money than the Old Firm

• Successes: as well as the 1980s, what about the 1940s, 1950s, or 1890s? Plenty of trophies were shared around in these eras too. Why mention only the 80s?
• Supporters: one of the biggest myths around - the days of the Old Firm outnumbering the rest put together are a phenomenon of the last two decades. Before the 1990s, Rangers had only averaged 40,000+ on 3 occasions and Celtic had never done so. Indeed, only since the 60s have they consistently been the two best supported sides in Scotland. In the period between the 2 World Wars, Hearts had consistently higher average attendances than Celtic, while those of Aberdeen and Hibs were broadly similar to the Hoops. In the 1950s, total attendance for Celtic, Hearts and Hibs were roughly equal.
• Money: did Dundee not break the Scottish transfer record to sign Billy Steel post-war? Celtic couldn't afford mediocre fees as recently as the early 90s. Not as straight forward as purported by the statement.
• Due to this: Chicken and egg argument - it would be equally plausible to say that, due to their greater historic level of playing success, the Old Firm have enjoyed much greater recent support, ie glory-hunters.

I will try a re-write in the next couple of days, unless anyone else has other ideas to improve the section Caledonian Place 01:33, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Apologies. I wrote this part, and living in the surrounding area of Dundee, have estimated that the amount of Old Firm fans outstrips the number of Dundee + United fans by about 4 to 1. You're far more likely to see a Celtic or Rangers top than a Dundee/United top here.

You might well be right. As an Edinburgh resident, I would suggest that Hearts/Hibs tops outnumber Celtic/Rangers ones here, certainly since the arrival of Romanov/Mowbray. The problem though is that the initial statement is contentious, and not really usuable without a reference, which I imagine will be difficult to obtain. I thought something along the lines of this might do:

the Old Firm are the only sides to enjoy significant support beyond their local area, their supporters as likely to come from Ayrshire, Lanarkshire or Tayside as from Glasgow.

What do you think? Caledonian Place 15:31, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Why is this so celtic biased?

It repeats that a minority of celtic fans sing republican songs. no mention of the vast majority that do so, and sung IRA terrorist songs!!!!!.. Rangers fans are made out to sing songs that offend everyone and fight with police. this is pathetic when people try to add some truth to matters it is undone.

this is bigoted bile and makes me sick.

Also please not that rangers have come on leaps and bounds in the battle against sectarianisim but celtic dont bother.

Celtic are allowed to be a catholic blub, but rangers get attacked for being protestant.

just a small addition celtic have never tried to be a catholic club and have since there inception employed people from all creeds colours and backgrounds but this is typical. also look up the definition of bigoted those who care to splash the term around bigotry and sectarianism of all sorts have been tackled at celtic park since fergus mc cann was the owner , he alone almost erdaicated the problem at celtic apart from old firm games celtic have never doubled back on there standards of tolerance towards sectarian behavior please do on blindpeople with your nonsense and half truths rangers have made no effort in 137 years of there existance. Say no to the old firm, celtic stand alone,no more guilt by association —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.168.129.150 (talk) 11:46, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Wiki is too PC now there is NO TRUTH in its content and the double standards are out of hand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.248.174 (talk) 15:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

'reading this page it is very biased. How about adding in some evidence of celtic fans signing sectarien racist and biggoted songs at games such as in 2001 during the minutes silence for the 9/11 casualties, or just last season when 3 fans were arrested in inverness for singing 'sectarien songs' i quote from the bbc. I also challenge the reason behind having anything about the 2008 uefa cup final in a section about sectarianism. (90.195.98.215 (talk) 15:38, 25 June 2009 (UTC))

Here you go this is a start even if it does not get published on the article at least the truth is somewhere on wikipedia.

Celtic fans openly disobeyed a request from there chairman and sung IRA sectarian chants at a game against Dundee in 2002 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/2275908.stm)

Celtic fans disgraced a minutes silence for the victims of the September 11th attacks in America by singing sectarian IRA chants during the silence at a game a few days after the attacks (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2264181.stm) Monkeymanman (talk) 19:25, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

However, UEFA declared the Rangers fans not guilty of alleged discriminatory chants.[18] UEFA challenged the ruling, and their Appeals Body partially upheld it

These two sentences needs abit tweaking for clarity and precision. Fornadan (t) 15:57, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

This page should be removed due to its severe bias and the fact that whoever is in charge of editing it has no desire to maintain fact and balance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.195.98.215 (talk) 12:40, 3 July 2009 (UTC)