Talk:Olei Hagardom

Untitled
where is the section describing their terrorist activities, same as ISIS.Juror1 (talk) 00:45, 17 February 2016 (UTC) sock comments

stern gang
Uh, whats the original research here?  nableezy  - 19:38, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I could easily add dozens of solid citations for "also known as the Stern Gang" just from the books and articles I have on my computer. There isn't the least bit of OR needed, nor is it POV, to report what sources report. I can source "Stern Group" too, maybe a bit fewer but still quite a lot of uses. The anomaly is actually "Lehi", which is a Hebrew name much less known in English and if we were to follow WP:COMMONNAME strictly it wouldn't be the name of the article on them. Zerotalk 01:37, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:COMMONNAME is about naming articles, it is not a license to use derogatory POV terms everywhere. Its use here is gratuitous. JungerMan Chips Ahoy! (talk) 01:47, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * "Also known as the Stern Gang" is a plain statement of fact, easily sourced. Whether you like it or not is entirely irrelevant. Also, I only mentioned COMMONNAME in relation to an article title. Zerotalk 02:14, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Not everything that can be sourced belongs in an article, and this POV derogatory term is a clear case of that. It adds nothing to the this article. The guiding policy here, for editors wishing to include disputed content, is WP:ONUS. So whether you like it or not, until you get consensus to include it here, it stays out. JungerMan Chips Ahoy! (talk) 02:27, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * What it adds is that more readers will understand what we are talking about. And your ownership claim is noted and rejected. Zerotalk 07:09, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Readers already know we are talking about Lehi. This derogatory alternate name adds nothing to their knowledge that is relevant to this article. Three editors have objected to this, and you have not met the WP:ONUS required to add disputed material to the article, and you do not get to reject policy based arguments that you disagree with. Feel free to start an RfC. JungerMan Chips Ahoy! (talk)
 * We need source that ties stern gang with olei hagardom --Shrike (talk) 11:52, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Here.  nableezy  - 17:49, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Restoring the well sourced material, ONUS requires consensus but consensus is not a head count. Reliable sources directly connect this material, absent an actual policy based reason I am restoring it.  nableezy  - 20:00, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The policy based reason is WP:NPOV, as has been explained above. And gaming 1RR by reverting at 24h+22 minutes does not look good. JungerMan Chips Ahoy! (talk) 20:03, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * What POV is given more than its DUE weight? We have brought several sources demonstrating that weight. Stern gang is needed because the sources talk about the Stern gang, so anybody who would pedantically question if that source was related to this topic would rightfully ask well the source says Stern gang, why does the article say Lehi? Im not gaming a thing. Im not the one here playing games trying to remove long standing material after having hounded a user to this page. That would be you. Feel free to report whatever you like, I would love an administrator to examine the actions of all parties here.  nableezy  - 20:04, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh, and as far as 3 users, one user made an edit saying "group" was preferred to gang, and another said we needed a source that ties stern gang to olei hagardom. Such a source is now included, rending that objection moot. So not quite 3 users support your effort to suppress material you find uncomfortable.  nableezy  - 20:11, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

OR
Source should be "published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article" as per WP:OR as source doesn't even mention the topic of the article it should be removed .--Shrike (talk) 10:48, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Uh I gave you a source directly related to the topic of the article. Original research is about prose, that prose is sourced to at least one reliable directly related to the topic of this article.  nableezy  - 21:18, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It doesn't mention "olei hagardom" so how you decided its related? --Shrike (talk) 05:55, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Why should a book in English have to use a particular Hebrew phrase in order to be related? The claim that "also known as the Stern Gang or Stern Group" is OR is frankly bizarre. You know it can be sourced over and over. Anyway, the book by Nasr is clearly directly related to the topic of the article. It even mentions the execution of many of these 12 people (Ben Yosef on p18, Hakim and Bet-Zuri on p19, Haviv, Nakar and Weiss on p20, I can't see the whole book). Any source that concerns Etzel/Lehi versus UK is obviously related. Zerotalk 08:33, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Here is an academic article specifically about the olei hagardom. On the second page it has "also known in English as the Stern Gang". So much for this silly argument. In passing I noticed that "olei hagardom" gets only 16 hits in Scholar and many of those are irrelevant. I believe this title would fail RM. Zerotalk 09:03, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Haaretz specifically mentions Olei Hagardom. The prose is very much supported by a source specifically about this topic.  nableezy  - 16:14, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Original vs Expanded List?
In the initial blurb: "The term does not include members of the Nili organisation hanged by the Ottoman government during World War I."

Under expanded list, 4 more names were added to the original list under Begin, 2 of which were members of Nili.

To me, these two parts of the article are inconsistent. Does the term "Olei Hagardom" include the Nili members or not i.e. refer to the original 12 or the expanded 16? Scotty1141 (talk) 10:07, 4 December 2021 (UTC)


 * We need to base this on reliable published sources. Please bring some. Zerotalk 12:50, 4 December 2021 (UTC)