Talk:On the Road/Archive 1

Excessive detail?
Anyone who's read this book knows there's a short way to describe it and a long way. The short way is to describe it as "Sal Paradise's adventures across America". The long way is what's written on the webpage. It's ridiculous to try to shorten a novel this dense.24.86.144.101 00:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Don t know where to put it, but beautiful hint to 9-11:

"Dean had a sweater wrapped around his ears to keep warm. He said we were a band of Arabs coming in to blow up New York." (page 112 - Penguin Edition. For all others: At the end of the second chapter in Part Two of the book.) 88.73.57.205 16:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I noticed that too as I was reading. Underlined it and everything! 24.86.144.101 00:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Is it worth mentioning you can read the book online with google print?--84.92.25.113 2 July 2005 23:22 (UTC)

The Kerouac page says it was written in two weeks, this says three


 * Sorry I don't have any English references to that, but the popular (and sound) German newspaper FAZ claims that "the roll" is not teletype paper, but rather a bunch of sandwich papers glued together (http://www.faz.net/s/RubCC21B04EE95145B3AC877C874FB1B611/Doc~E8FC3B1C726464194832C4F291FAAF6D6~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html). Are there any other independent sources supporting one or the other?


 * My understanding is that it was written on sheets of canvas (for painting), glued together. Just what I heard, at least. 24.86.144.101 00:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * When Kerouac was interviewed by Steve Allen (it's on YouTube), he told Allen it was teletype paper. A long roll of teletype paper that he fed into the typewriter. - Elmarco 23:07, 19 July 2011 (UTC)


 * If you read the introduction in the 1991 Penguin edition by Ann Charters - Kerouac's biographer - it clearly gives information as to the time it took to type out, three weeks is correct. Kerojack, Argenta 15:19, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Sal Paradise, the narrator of On the Road and the character identified as Kerouac's alter ego  Identified by whom? Did Kerouac say this specifically? Max 097 02:31, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe that he did. All of the characters in the book have analogues in Kerouac's life. | Klaw ¡digame! 02:46, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Popular culture references

 * I just commented out several references to Kerouac that aren't references to On the Road. This isn't the right article for references just to the author.
 * In addition, do we really need to mention every sighting of On the Road? If there's no standard for inclusion, it might be better to move this section off to List of references to On the Road. | Klaw ¡digame! 19:51, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Removal of information
RasputinAXP, why did you remove the information I provided, connecting Dean Moriarty to Neal Cassady? This is mentioned nowhere else on the page and is important.

I also feel that the links I provided to On the Road book covers and musical references, which you also removed, are relevant and useful. Pitoucat 16:31, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree...I also believe the fact that Dean Moriarty was gay is important.

I don't think Dean was gay. At no point did he suggest this.Nachoman123 07:29, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Ginsberg (Karlo Marx) was gay, and it is rumoured that Neal Cassady (who is portrayed by Dean Moriarty) was gay... but it's not substantial enough to make much of a claim (a friend once put it like this "Did you really think Dean and Karlo spent all night just talking!?") 24.86.144.101 00:51, 30 July 2007 (UTC) July, 29, 2007

Splitting off pop-references
The 'References in Pop-culture' section is getting rather long. I suggest it be split into its own article, with the three most notable references remaining on this page. risk 23:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I fully agree. Stephenjh 09:22, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree. Mattbrundage 21:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Couldn't we just delete pop-references entirely? It seems like most of the items on the list are just some random band quickly mentioning Kerouac in one of their songs, not something important enough to be mentioned at all. Max 097 07:18, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * They certainly don't belong in this article. See Jack Kerouac in popular culture -- Beardo 09:13, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Date Written
Does anyone have an actual time period when it was written? This only states when published.

First published in 1955 and 1957, according to my copy. Perhaps small portion were released early, thus the two dates. 74.12.78.138 15:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Plot Summary
Everyone seems to be whining about the section on the plot but no one has done much about it. I've put in an hour, that's all I'll likely give. Ironically, this discussion page is just as bad with its unsigned posting and general messiness. I'm editing this as best as I can as well.

Also, it is clear that the plot summary was a book report. If you read Wiki suggestions you will see that it says that "most undergraduate level essays are fine for Wikipedia." The idea being that undergrads can paste the fifty or so essays they have written onto Wikipedia and we can edit them from there. The person who wrote the plot summary has done more to advance this article than anyone who complained but did nothing to improve the section themselves. It needs a lot work, but I think its better that nothing.

Below is the dog's breakfast of previous postings on the plot summary section. 74.12.78.138 15:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Plot Summary (ii)
The plot section read more like a discussion than an outline, full of opinion a lot of which I don't agree with

Plot Summary (iii)
This entry is abysmal.

The bulk of the entry is a plot summary that doesn't even begin to explore the nature of Jack's writing. Jack was a poet and in writing the book he was trying to get an internal rhythm going, the way a road rolls on forever. There is much speculative commentary that has no place in the summary (I am working on Orpheus Emerged right now, so maybe someone could tell me how to join the novel project) and again, it seems that the author has read the book and formed an opinion and then written it. OK, they cite the Penguin Edition of 1991, in the front there is a foreward by Ann Charters that would be a great source of verification of real life details, since Ann knew Jack personally and even agreed (with John Clellon Holmes to put together an autobiographical anthology of Jack's work.

On The Road the wiki needs rewriting, the book cover is just wrong, it should always be the first edition hardback book cover OR the cover of the cited work, in this case the 1991 Penguin Edition. There is a strong element of jazz running right through some of the scenes in the book which is essential to the understanding of Sal's and Dean's characters. No mention of Bull Lee, Ed Dunkel, Remi Boncceur and a few others as well.

I am quite happy to work on this wiki given half a chance. Let me know? Thanks Kerojack, Argenta 08:20, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Plot Summary (iv)
I agree with the others, it reads more like a book report than a summary of the plot. It deals with points too specific and is too long for someone, such as myself, who knows nothing about the book but wants a quick overview before investigating further. Cbotman 06:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Someone just fix it already, it's terrible.

Plot Summary (v)
The Story section reads more like a discussion of On the Road than a Wikipedia entry. Shouldn't it be more focused on the actual plot? If we're going to discuss the themes of the book, that should be a separate section. I already removed a paragraph, but that section probably needs a total rewrite.

I thought the main character (Kerouac) *was* homosexual... that there is no need to say something to the effect of, "his interest in Sal could be interpreted as closet homosexuality"

I dont think this should be included either, its opinion.

'''
 * Jack Kerouac's gender identity or sexual preferences is not essential to an understanding of the novel. In my opinion such a discussion should be removed to the wiki for Kerouac alone. Any discussion should be backed up by primary or cited secondary sources (people who knew him, for example). My own opinion is that Kerouac was bisexual. Of course since I lack primary or secondary sources, my comment remains just an item in the discussion for now.


 * A plot summary should be just that, it should deal with the main story being told, a thumbnail of the principal characters, sufficient to allow someone who has never picked up the book to gain a feel for what the novel strives to tell.


 * This is a project Lowell in MA should be involved with, as according to a personal conversation I had in 2006 with John Sampas, that was his intention in dropping the Official Jack Kerouac site online.

Kerojack, Argenta (talk) 16:05, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

under construction title
I have removed the under construction tag, as it has been there since April 19 and it doesn't appear that the section is still actively being worked on. Heavy Metal Cellist talkcontribs

who is the "last psychatrist"?
It's an interesting article, but is it really notable enough for inclusion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.12.119.154 (talk) 00:40, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with Notability
128.12.119.154 has removed the following section from the article with the comment "Who is this guy anyways? Alexa has him spiking from nonexistent as a result of this link. removed for being nonnotable"

Here is the material that was removed:


 * The "Last Psychiatrist" says that On the Road is a primer on how to be a narcissist and that the book isn't about freedom or growth but denial. "The notion that they're trying to experience things or learn things or grow is precisely wrong. The experiences are incidental, the learning completely absent; the real purpose of the trip is to say that you went on the trip."

I have reverted the article to include the deleted information for the following reasons: The remarks are reliable and pertinent to a critique of "On the Road." In fact, prior to those remarks being added there was no Criticism Section in the article.
 * It is not a matter of notability but of reliability of the source. You don't delete someone's additions because of notability. You would delete an entire article because of "lack of notability" of the subject. Notability and Reliability of the Source are two entirely different things:  Notability refers to topics that are deemed worthy of an article in Wikipedia. "Notability is an inclusion criterion based on encyclopedic suitability of a topic."  The article "On the Road" is notable.  That is not what we are discussing here.  Reliability of the source refers to "1) the piece of work that is being cited, 2) the creator of the work (the author or artist), and 3) the publisher or location where it is to be found (a website, book, album or painting). All three can affect the reliability of the work." I would contend that the source is reliable.  The writer is a medical doctor with the speciality in psychiatry. His criticism of "On the Road" refers specifically to Kerouac's "narcissism" and his "denial," two psychological concepts that are within the area of expertise of the author.
 * 128.12.119.154 also says that "Alexa has him spiking from nonexistent as a result of this link." That is simply untrue and even if it were what does this have to do with deleting the section? The alexa spike occurred in mid-September when the "Last Psychiatrist" had one of his posts on the front page of Reddit. The addition to the "On the Road" article happened on October 5.  There is simply no connection between the two.  But even if Wikipedia caused a spike in someone's Alexa ratings, how is this a justification for deleting the material? Are we to delete all material from Wikipedia that contains a citation? I don't follow this argument.

And for the record, I am not "the Last Psychiatrist" and I do not know "the Last Psychiatrist." Best Regards,  -- Reservoirhill (talk) 22:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Plot summary
I've removed the plot tag from the plot summary. After considering it for a few weeks, I think the current version goes some way towards doing justice to a work that (for once) merits the term "iconic", and I don't think it would be a good idea to trim it simply because it's a little over our ideal length. It should be as long as it needs to be, and it should be written in a style that makes the reader want to read it, and perhaps to read the work itself. In my opinion it succeeds at the former, at least. --Tony 00:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Influence section becoming pop culture reference list
I think this is starting to become something of a disorganized list, and rather then put up the warning to trim it down, and then wait while it continues to grow, I thought I'd just go ahead stick it in here. That way it can be contructively worked into the text with out having time to turn into a monster. --Leodmacleod (talk) 21:17, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * On 12 December, 2007, British digital TV channel BBC Four broadcast a documentary presented by comedian Russell Brand and his comedic counterpart Matt Morgan in which they commemorated the novel's 50th anniversary by retracing the route taken by Jack Kerouac from his hometown of Lowell to San Francisco.


 * On the April 24, 2008 episode of Lost entitled "The Shape of Things to Come", Benjamin Linus checks into a hotel under the alias of Dean Moriarty.


 * In the Beastie Boys' song "3-Minute Rule" off their album Paul's Boutique, their lyrics say, "...while I'm reading On the Road by my man Jack Kerouac".


 * A 2007 television series called Traveler begins the pilot by introducing On the Road as the inspiration for a road trip three college graduates are about to take before entering their careers. Things take a turn for the worst when Will Traveler turns out to be an American CIA agent that has set up his two friends who now have the greatest road trip of all, running from all American police and security agencies.


 * The Hold Steady released an album in 2006 titled Boys and Girls in America, referencing On the Road. The opening lyrics to the album are, "There are nights when I think Sal Paradise was right. Boys and girls in America, they have such a sad time together." The second line is taken directly from Kerouac describing Sal's experiences in Denver.


 * The Canadian rock quartet Our Lady Peace debuted their fifth studio album 'Gravity' with the track 'All For You,' which features the lyrics 'Jack Kerouac, Kerouac, on the road, and in my head.'


 * Coke Newell's award-winning novel On the Road to Heaven was heavily inspired by Kerouac's work.


 * Dutch author Auke Hulst and illustrator/cartoonist Raoul Deleo commemorated fifty years of On the Road with an impressionistic crossover between a graphic novel and literary non-fiction, called De eenzame snelweg (meaning: The Lonely Highway)


 * Stand-up comedian and regular Mock the Week panellist Russell Howard did a tour in 2008 called Dingledodies, which was inspired by the book.


 * Brandon Flowers of the Las Vegas band, The Killers, has said that he was reading "On The Road" while writing songs for their 2008 studio album, "Day & Age"


 * 'Holiday', a track from the American rock band Weezer features the lyrics, "On the road with Kerouac/Sheltered in his Bivouac/On this road we'll never die."


 * American band Jawbreaker reference Kerouac in the song 'Boxcar' with the line "You don't know what i'm all about/Like killing cops and reading Kerouac"

Travel map
The Spanish language version of this page contains this excellent map

As well as a chart detailing the travels contained in the book. I'm wondering, is there any reason NOT to use this info for novels native language page? --Leodmacleod (talk) 21:04, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * As no one's voiced an objection in the past two months, I assumed not and added it. — Hysteria18 (Talk • Contributions) 16:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

This map isn't correct. They definitely go through Nebraska in 1947 (see pages 18, 20, 21, 24 and others of the Penguin Vintage edition available on google books.) --97.126.169.98 (talk) 08:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed. The map is so bad that its continued appearance here is an embarrassment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.19.3.187 (talk • contribs)


 * Jack also visits Detroit at least once in the Penguin edition and twice in the Penguin Classics Deluxe Edition (for instance, pg. 340 in the Deluxe Edition). --Bob 03:03, 25 May 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blueboy77 (talk • contribs)

Neither Kerouac himself nor the charecter Sal took the trips seen on this map. Please remove it. Better to have no map at all rather than this inaccurate one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.172.150.88 (talk) 12:36, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree. I removed the map from the article but leave the one here. It could serve as a starting point to render a correct version.Ekem (talk) 20:07, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Photo of Scroll
Having seen the scroll, my understanding is that it was forbidden to take photos of it; however there is one on this site. I could not find anywhere in the photo details that stated the photographer had permission to take that photo. Should it therefore still remain here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.47.106.107 (talk) 17:41, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I openly took several pictures of the scroll in Austin, TX in front of security and was not bothered. I saw no signs indicating that photography was no allowed, other than one sign about not using flash, which I did not do.  The actual content of the scroll isn't visable in this image and therefor cannot be exploited by a third party for commericial gain.  Unless Viking Press or the estate of Jack Kerouac comes along and says otherwise, the photo is safe and legal.

--Leodmacleod (talk) 20:17, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Interesting - because I saw the scroll as well, and there were signs everywhere stating that it was forbidden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.47.106.107 (talk) 13:23, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Speaking of the scroll, in the "Production and publication section," it is describe as both "a 120-foot roll of teletype paper" and "a continuous, one hundred and twenty-foot scroll of tracing paper sheets." Which, if either of these description is accurate? I am also unsure of the use of the term "tracing paper" as in my youth in the 1960s & 1970s, the terms tracing paper and typing paper were used interchangably, but it seem more likely to me that typing paper would have been used for this purpose. But what do I know? I'm no beat poet!

Ttenchantr (talk) 05:33, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Sales? Commercial response?
I'm surprised there is nothing on the book's initial commercial success. Was it a best seller when it came out? How long after the publication before it caught fire? Jackbox1971 (talk) 22:52, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Origins section: OTR and other writings in French, & Michel Tremblay.
The section includes the 2007 discovery that Kerouac wrote at least one early novel, and began to write On The Road (OTR), in Quebec French, including colloquial language. But all of Kerouac's published writing presents him as a cross cultural writer whose primary language of choice is most notably English. The source article in Quebec's Le Devoir claims that the first version of OTR was the ten pages in French of 1951, but we know that he began to write it three years earlier in 1948, the year after the travels that led to the book.

Certainly, whether or not he wrote a draft in French, Kerouac completed and published OTR in English. And that is what this article is about.

Still, it's good to see a mention of the discovery of the French partial draft. But I don't feel that it's appropriate to include a mention of Michel Tremblay in the article, because of the things the reference brings with it.

Kerouac never shunned colloquial language and the discovery shows that he used colloquial Québec French before it became widely used in Canadian literature. But, until the papers were found in 2007, nobody knew much about him doing so.

He was proud of his French ancestry, but Kerouac was no less proud of his English ancestry. Although he never shunned his Canuck origins, his published works include few French passages. Kerouac was not a French Canadian who wrote in English under duress to ensure publication, he wrote in English because he wanted to express himself in a particular way. I do not think that OTR would have had the success if it had been published in French. And I am sure that the language of OTR had to be primarily English with a heaping helping of colloquial American English because it was set in a time and place: it would not have worked in another language. And that applies to others of Kerouac's works.

Also, whatever opinons Kerouac might have held about its position in Canada, he never publicly declared a thought that Quebec should secede from the rest of the country.

Tremblay has an entirely different standpoint than Kerouac. He was, and still is, a prime mover for the beginning and increase of the use of Canadian French in literature and refutes English as the tongue of Québec. He also has strong feelings in favor of the secession of Québec from English-speaking Canada.

So I cannot see any justification for the inclusion of the comment about Tremblay in the OTR article. I'm not even sure if it ought to be included in the Jack Kerouac article, in the existing section about his French language work. Because of my concerns about this article, I have revised its wording. Also, to keep the section in date order (keeping the year 2007 as key) I've moved the paragraph to the end of the Origins section. It's a pity for those who aren't literate in French that the source article, and another one that Le Devoir published a few days later, are in French, because it would lead to greater understanding. In the absence of an already established translation I've only changed the citation style of the reference to 'cite news'. Twistlethrop (talk) 08:46, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

New plot summary
I replaced the old plot summary with a newly written one, because, as previously noted, the old version contained subjective and unreferenced interpretations, too many to allow for an easy correction. Interpretative comments are, of course, welcome but should be in a separate section and duly supported.Ekem (talk) 20:04, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Katy Perry?
There was an input in the "Influence" section about how Katy Perry states that her "song" called "Fireworks" was inspired by the book. This information is not relevant to anyone in anyway and I deleted it. Many people and many things have been inspired by this book, and frankly this song is not significant in any shape or form, and including it in this article is a smear on Mr. Kerouac’s legacy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.107.42.216 (talk) 10:12, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Major Themes
I find most of the 'Major Themes' section truly odious. The penultimate paragraph injects a lot of extremely new and modern women studies / gender studies nonsense that I think is almost entirely irrelevant, and I strongly suspect Mr. Kerouac would have thought the same. The last paragraph is asserted without citation, and feels like a high school essayist, who is desperately searching for a theme, and so settles on a cliched "coming-of-age" interpretation.

Only the part ending with Kerouac's own quote seems suitable. I do not mean to imply we may only take the author's word verbatim for themes in general, but considering this is largely autobiographical, and Kerouac has very visibly shunned a lot of these type of themes in the past, I think most of this section is ludicrous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dallas malice (talk • contribs) 17:27, 24 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I notice most of the problems with this article (NPOV and otherwise) can be linked to this single edit. It's a pity that it cannot simply be reversed in one fell swoop, else you wipe out the work of all the editors who have worked on it since. Dallas malice (talk) 19:23, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Meaningless Content in Article; Terrible Style
"The epic nature of the adventures and the text itself creates a tremendous sense of meaning and purpose for the depicted themes and lessons."

WTF. — Muckapedia (talk) 5 e avr. 2016 9h13 (−4h)


 * I've removed the sentence as original research.Dialectric (talk) 14:56, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Why not mention the amphetamine use?
Odd that no mention is made of the depiction in the novel of recreational use of amphetamine (breaking open "inhalers"). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:44B8:31E3:8800:AC59:2094:D80E:E0E9 (talk) 13:00, 10 June 2016 (UTC)