Talk:Orchis mascula

File:Orchis-mascula-Formation.jpg
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Liberal Shepherds
The text says "long purples, that liberal shepherds give a grosser name".

What was the grosser name? Thomas Peardew (talk) 18:13, 11 May 2018 (UTC)


 * After Jwikip's edit, the list of the flowers is now bracketed by a few more of the Bard's words, but I still have no idea what is the grosser name used by the liberal shepherds. It's quite true now that the reader will see that "our cold maids" called them "dead men's fingers" (from the appearance of the roots), but in 16th Century England maids and shepherds were classes that barely overlapped, whether the maids were cold or warm. Thomas Peardew (talk) 15:09, 13 December 2021 (UTC)


 * You are correct u:Thomas Peardew we do not know what other names Shakespeare had in mind. Plenty of grosser names for this and other orchids may be found on internet, for reasons which may be deduced from Orchis_mascula. I do not have a good reference for O.mascula alone ; nor am I certain that the long purples were indeed this orchid! What say you, u:Thomas Peardew? jw (talk) 17:15, 13 December 2021 (UTC)


 * We need someone with access to JSTOR academic articles. Possibly this one gives at least some of the answers: [| Shakespeare Quarterly October 1948] . I can read only the first page.Thomas Peardew (talk) 17:50, 13 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Possibly "cullions" (=testicles) As for the ‘grosser name’ used by ‘liberal shepherds,’ Griffiths explains that whilst tuber shape underpinned the accepted name for tuberous orchids ‘at the same time unqualified testicular names were generally and informally used’ to describe them. Citing a typeset error in Gertrude’s speech in the second quarto edition of Hamlet (1604 and 1605) he argues that the compositors misinterpreted a note Shakespeare made to himself (‘cull’) as being part of the intended text (‘cull-cold maids’) instead of the beginnings of the ‘grosser name’ for the orchids, ‘cullions’. Used by Shakespeare in other plays, ‘cullions’ signified testicles and was used as a vulgar term of abuse. That is from this source, which I don't trust(because of the basic meaning of "orchis": why restrict the cullions to orchis maculata?) - [| Country Life April 2016]


 * There is also evidence (again, no hard references, at least for the moment) that long purples may have referred to cuckoo pints or to other orchids. But none of this speculation allows us to know what the bard intended. NB. The above link to Country Life appears to be broken (or at least not accessible from here). jw (talk) 20:57, 13 December 2021 (UTC)


 * This one might work better: [| Country Life April 2016]. Cuckoo pints don't seem to get much support on the internet, particularly as they are not really suitable for a garland/bouquet: the issue is discussed extensively out there. Thomas Peardew (talk) 21:23, 13 December 2021 (UTC)