Talk:Oyakodon

(tentative identification of talk [apparently contributed March 10 - (perhaps morning only) 11, 2003] moved from another talk page (a user one?) )
Moved from User Talk:Duckie
 * Hi Duckie!

Are you sure about the change from Donburi ni shiru to Donburi no shiru? I find no hits on the latter either at google.com or altavista.com, but i do find (perhaps a perpetuated error) the former.

Arthur 11:37 Mar 10, 2003 (UTC)

For Google 18 hits are nothing. I know "donburi ni shiru" is grammatically incorrect. Because the Japanese usually don't use the name "donburi no shiru" I did little research to find a better name but it looks like they don't have any special name for it. Before rewriting the article I just corrected the obvious error.

For your information what is called "donburi no shiru" here is made of konbu (sea tangle) dashi, mirin, and soy sauce. -- Duckie 14:52 Mar 10, 2003 (UTC)


 * I found the name warishita but it is only used in the Kanto region and is mostly used for Sukiyaki. Shiru means juice or liquid and we don't want to have liquid in an oyakodon. I think we should just call it sauce or not call anything. -- Duckie 19:13 Mar 10, 2003 (UTC)


 * Okay. I'm trying to work with you on this. I've asked other wikipedia authors to comment as well. What i know so far is that "simmered foods" are called "nimono" in Japan. They don't necessarily have liquid at the end, however. Why is "nu", and not "ni" the correct grammatical form now? (Listen! Please trust me. I'm not being contentious. I'm trying to learn, and so I have to ask questions. I'm very happy that you are trying to improve these articles.) I've also seen, at Osaka Gas Co's web pages (http://www.bob-an.com/recipe/dailyjc/basic/oyako/oyako.html), the simmering broth refered to simply as "tsuyu". If we called the broth for simmering the donburi toppings, "donburi tsuyu", would this be better? And if so, why?


 * Keep in mind, though, that the ingredients for donburi toppings (nimono), are usually simmered in liquid, even though the liquid is eventually boiled mostly away. Shiru might, when combined with NI (or NU), be the appropriate term. And the simmering liquid is not a sauce as such. It's the fluid in which the toppings are cooked. As you said, we don't want a liquid in donburi.


 * And, for what it's worth, the simmering broth is made 50 different ways in Japan (a very large and diverse country when it comes to cooking). Tsuji Shizuo, in Japanese cooking: A simple art, has four different versions. Sometimes water is used, sometimes dashi, sometimes chicken broth. I described a version that was useful for lots of dishes (donburi, tempura, and agedashi tofu) in order to keep things managable for a foreigner. Arthur 22:38 Mar 10, 2003 (UTC)


 * First, it wasn't "nu" but "no." "Ni" is used like "to" in English. For example, "Nabe ni ireru" or "Add to a pan." "No" means "'s" like in "tamago no kara" meaning "An egg's shell."


 * Just calling tsuyu may be a good idea. But if you want to put donburi before the word it conjugates to zuyu. I know Japanese is difficult.


 * The one on oyakodon is not nimono. The Japanese call nimono only the food they cook (mostly root vegitables and meat) for a long time at least 15 minutes, sometimes hours. For nimono a little liquid is usually left even after cooking. For oyakodon the liquid is used only as seasoner. And tentsuyu that you linked from the term in question is also different for the similar reason. You put tentsuyu on the rice but the seasoning for oyakodon is supposed to be in the egg.


 * The difference between regions is a good one. People in the east (Kanto) and the west (Kansai) cook most food in different ways.


 * O.K., I'm going to cook oyakodon for my dinner. -- Duckie 00:26 Mar 11, 2003 (UTC)

Duckie, I can't thank you enough for the fun conversation here. While I know I'm an expert on Japanese food (I've never met a native Japanese that's had home-made dashi--although I make it all the time), I'm completely ignorant about the Japanese language (I apologize). This is so interesting to me. (I made oyakodon four days ago. Next time, maybe I'll use konbu dashi, just to be respectful of you.)

A small disagreement: nimono is only poorly translated into english as "boiled foods". Nimono are simmered dishes, not boiled. -- Arthur 00:48 Mar 11, 2003 (UTC)


 * I always make dashi by myself, usually with niboshi. I have never used MSG because it makes me sick. I wrote FYI because I thought the one who wrote on the user talk page was somebody other than the one who wrote the article. I didn't make sure the description was on the article. I know some people use niboshi or katsuo to make dashi for oyakodon. I didn't mean to say "you are supposed to use konbu dashi for oyakodon."


 * I know you shouldn't boil when you make dashi but I didn't know nimono is the same way because nimono literally means "boiled stuff." I sometimes use a pressure cooker to bring the temperature higher than boiling point so that it cooks faster and meat gets really soft. -- Duckie 02:58 Mar 11, 2003 (UTC)


 * I just noticed ni in donburi ni shiru could be that in nimono. But as Taku wrote on Reference desk such term is not used at least in Japanese. -- Duckie 03:12 Mar 11, 2003 (UTC)


 * And in that case shiru should conjugate to donburi niziru or donburi nijiru. -- Duckie 03:47 Mar 11, 2003 (UTC)

Arthur asked "I need input from someone with a little Japanese knowledge. I'm trying to describe a donburi simmering sauce. NImono refers to simmered dishes, and I've seen "donburi NI shiru" refer to donburi simmering sauce. But now someone tells me that it should be "donburi NU shiru". do you have any advice?"


 * First, let me give rough translations of the four words you are questioning, in the context you are using them.


 * * donburi - "bowl of rice with food"
 * * nimono - "food cooked by boiling"
 * * ni - "in" or "for"
 * * no - "of"
 * * shiru - "soup" or "broth"

So "donburi ni shiru" means "soup for bowl of rice with food" or "sauce for donburi". -º¡º

P.S. I am glad I could help. Please know I am only a gaijin, and I defer to the nihonjin who understand better than I. I attempted to translate the words as best I understood them. You asked me about "donburi nu shiru", which meant nothing to me, but I agree with Taku that "donburi no shiru" makes sense too, along the lines of "sauce of donburi".

The following is pasted from Reference Desk. Arthur 21:42 Mar 11, 2003 (UTC)

Hello. I'm a Japanese just summoned up by Taku. :-) I agree with Taku. Donburi ni shiru is something I have never heard of. Ni could indicate boiled stuff, as you indicated, but when combined with the word shiru, it should become "nijiru" rather than "ni shiru."

Since Taku spoke of Google, I checked pages with "donburi ni shiru." It seems that there are around 10 pages with that term, and all giving the same information (in terms of portions of ingredients). It seems that a recipe in Meal Master could be the only source. (Would you double-check, though?)

It is also possible that it actually means "donburi no shiru" (shiru of/for donburi dish). "Donburi no tsuyu" sounds equally fine.

Now if the term is quite popular among English speakers who like Japanese cuisine, I guess that could be enough reason to include the term in the article.

Also, I am aware that immigrants in a foreign land, over time, form a culture different from their homeland's. Some aspects may preserve tradition, others show unique development. If that kind of diaspora culture is the source of that Meal Master info., or any others using the term, again, that would be a good reason to keep the term in the article.

Also, please feel free to remove my remarks after using it (so that others can use this space). Tomos 05:00 Mar 11, 2003 (UTC)

I'm beginning to think it was a phrase created by someone who knows only a little Japanese. And all the web references do seem to come from one meal master recipe. They also describe it as a dipping sauce for donburi, which doesn't make sense.

Of those who've written here, most seem to feel that there is no distinct Japanese name for donburi simmering sauces. I think we should change it to "simmering sauce", in English. Arthur 21:42 Mar 11, 2003 (UTC)


 * Well written!
 * Regular onion is also a popular ingredient for oyakodon. -- Duckie 03:49 Mar 12, 2003 (UTC)

I like onion in oyakodon, too. :) I wanted to add following facts, but couldn't find a good place. So I leave them here, hoping someone can integrate them someday. Tomos 04:10 Mar 12, 2003 (UTC)
 * The name comes from the fact that chicken and egg, the two major ingredients, are in a relation of parent and child, categorically speaking. However, it does not mean that the egg must come from the very chicken used for the dish.
 * In Japan, oyakodon is served typically in soba restaurants and traditional Japanese restaurants.

Duckie, the last change was very nice!

Arthur 04:00 Mar 13, 2003 (UTC)~

Cookbook entry
Maybe someone could add cookbook entry in Wikibooks for this dish. -- 69.214.226.102 20:49, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

"Shiru"
The whole shiru thing was pointless and removed from the article anyway, but here was the talk about it. (Extends to the bottom of the talk page.) -- 69.214.226.102 20:49, 11 May 2005 (UTC)