Talk:Panther tank

Proposal to move "Panther tank" to "Panzer V Panther" (and vice versa) for clarity and consistency:
All other pages concerning the numbered German tanks of WWII have the name format "Panzer   " from the Panzer I all the way up to the proposed designs of the Panzer IX and Panzer X so moving this page would make it consistent with the rest.

Furthermore renaming this page to "Panzer V Panther" would remove any possible confusion with the Panther KF51, the latest MBT design of Rheinmetall Landsysteme and Krauss-Maffei Wegmann which was publicly unveiled in 2022, and would thus increase clarity.


 * EU-DE-NRW-SI (talk) 10:13, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Vehicle was never named Panzer V Panther. --Denniss (talk) 10:50, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * To quote literally the first sentence of the article:
 * &ensp;"The Panther tank, officially Panzerkampfwagen V Panther (abbreviated PzKpfw V) [...], is a German medium tank of World War II."
 * EU-DE-NRW-SI (talk) 11:24, 16 September 2022 (UTC)


 * PS: Just in case, Panzer is the short form of Panzerkampfwagen. EU-DE-NRW-SI (talk) 11:24, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing out an error in the intro, it was Panzerkampfwagen V then renamed to just Panther. --Denniss (talk) 11:39, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Looking around, both names, Pz Kpfw V and Pz Kpfw Panther, was used simultaneously in 1943. https://www.germanmilitaria.com/Heer/photos/H004084.html The allies also used both names combined in their reports. https://www.afvhandbooks.com/afvshop/cat_1692211-All-Manuals-cc-pg_3.html As for WP:CommonName, the most common name is Pz V Panther.--Blockhaj (talk) 21:35, 16 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I think Wikipedia policy is to use the most common name, and as far as I know, few sources use the roman numeral when talking about the tank in question.Sus scrofa (talk) 16:49, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Big +, Panzer V Panther is the best POLA name.--Blockhaj (talk) 19:11, 16 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose - WP:CommonName uber alles. GraemeLeggett (talk) 19:58, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Osprey publish Foreign Panthers (NVG 313), Panther vs Sherman (DUE 13), Panther vs T-34 (DUE 4), Modelling the Panther Tank (MOD 30), Panther Medium Tank 1942–45 (NVG 67), Panther Variants 1942–45 (NVG 22), Panther (Thomas Anderson), and Panther: Germany's Quest For Combat Dominance (Michael Green, Gladys Green) but The PzKpfw V Panther (orignal Vanguard series) is out of print. GraemeLeggett (talk) 22:00, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * So we should move M4 Sherman to just Sherman?--Blockhaj (talk) 02:00, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Well Osprey also publish M4 Sherman vs Type 97 Chi-Ha and Modelling the US Army M4 (75mm) Sherman Medium Tank but you're proposing the change, so burden is on you to show that sources tend to use "Panzer V Panther" rather than current article title. GraemeLeggett (talk) 06:49, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
 * First of all what does it matter what one publisher chooses to publish and which titles they choose to use? Since when have they become the ne plus ultra?
 * But very well, let's prove it then...
 * Panzer V Panther (Thomas Anderson)
 * Panzer V Panther und seine Abarten (Walter J. Spielberg, Hilary L. Doyle)
 * Panzerkampfwagen V Panther (Axel Turra)
 * PANZER V Panther (Jürgen Prommersberger)
 * PANTHER Panzerkampfwagen V (Horst Scheibert)
 * Preserved German Tanks 2: Panzer V Panther to Leopard 2 (Trevor Larkum)
 * Sd.kfz. 171 Panzer V "Panther" (Dmitry Mironov, Łukasz Gładysiak)
 * PzKpfw V Panther Ausf. A (Wojciech J. Gawrych)
 * ...and those are only the ones with some form of "Panzer V Panther" in the title (with a cover) I could find within like five of searching.
 * Conclusion: You don't really have any argument.
 * EU-DE-NRW-SI (talk) 12:17, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Well the Sherman was always officially named M4 Sherman. The Panher was Panzerkampfwagen V with the suggestive byname of Panther and was later officially renamed to Panzerkampfwagen Panther, dropping the V the same way as the Tiger dropped the VI. Denniss (talk) 11:28, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The Sherman was officially named Medium Tank M4.--Blockhaj (talk) 01:41, 18 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose - Per WP:Commonname. Nuff said. BilCat (talk) 23:43, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Unfavorable comparison to IS-2
The note here as well as the note on the IS-2 page suggest some error on Zaloga's side when mentioning the distances. I see there's a citation needed tag there since last year. I found Nachrichtenblatt der Panzertruppen (but the info about the IS-2 is at page 30 not 34), but I can't find the 1944 Pz.-Beschußtafeln anywhere to confirm. I think there's a certain misunderstanding in here somewhere, since the IS-2 1943 had 120mm @30° on the driver's plate, and the KwK 40 is noted on its own page to punch through around that at 500m, so Zaloga's claim is plausible. Unless we can produce the Pz.-Beschußtafeln mentioned in Nachrichtenblatt der Panzertruppen to determine the exact context of what is written there, I think we can chalk this one up to a misunderstanding and remove the note. Thoughts? MaxRavenclaw (talk) 16:00, 14 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Well, seeing how nobody seems to disagree or care, I'll go ahead and update the post. MaxRavenclaw (talk) 20:07, 15 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Comparisons of the Panther vs IS2 is uninteresting from an armor point of view. Neither had problems penetrating one another at traditional ranges. The IS2 had protection issues against the Panther, which is one of the reasons the Soviets rescaped the upper frontal hull in 1944.--Blockhaj (talk) 23:44, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

The article reproduces a common error
The article states that the tank was influenced by the sloped armour of the T34 which it is alleged provided superior protection. This is simply untrue: The mass of a plate and the thickness of it (in a given orientation) covering a given area is unaffected by it's slope. In other words it's true that if you angle a plate to some orientation, it becomes thicker, but you will need more plate to cover the same area, ending up with the exact same weight-to-thickness ratio. Now an angle might help deflect a shell, but that effect is insignificant for high velocity shells (they melt/'dig in' at any angle) which were the dominant AT weapons of the time. (Think why an Leopard II a4 got straight plates at it's frontal turret). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:7660:289A:0:319B:6167:915F:9FA2 (talk) 22:18, 19 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Please read Sloped Armor DynCoder (talk) 22:20, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Proposal to make the intro less segmented?
In my opinion, the segmented look that this article's intro has doesn't look too good and also doesn't really have any flow to it. For example, here is the start of the intro

The Panther tank, officially Panzerkampfwagen V Panther (abbreviated PzKpfw V) with ordnance inventory designation: Sd.Kfz. 171, is a German medium tank of World War II. It was used on the Eastern and Western Fronts from mid-1943 to the end of the war in May 1945.

On 27 February 1944 it was redesignated to just PzKpfw Panther, as Hitler ordered that the Roman numeral "V" be deleted.[citation needed] In contemporary English-language reports it is sometimes referred to as the "Mark V".

I propose we get rid of the spaces and male it look like this (with an edit or 2 to help flow and readability)

The Panther tank, officially Panzerkampfwagen V Panther (abbreviated PzKpfw V) with ordnance inventory designation: Sd.Kfz. 171, is a German World War II Medium Tank that was used on the Eastern and Western Fronts from mid-1943 to the end of the war in May 1945. On 27 February 1944, it was redesignated to PzKpfw Panther, as Hitler ordered that the Roman numeral "V" be deleted.[citation needed] In contemporary English-language reports it is sometimes referred to as the "Mark V"

In my (relatively uninformed and wildly amateur historian mind) this looks and reads better Redrhuadri (talk) 10:50, 27 June 2023 (UTC)