Talk:Papa Stour

Image:Papa Stour 1890.jpg
This image is subject to various UK Crown Copyrights, esp.
 * Ordnance Survey
 * Scottish Executive
 * The National Library of Scotland (NLS).

It is a screene shot taken from NLS's digital map collection using the viewer provided with the NLS's website.

As a proof of the tird party rights, the image still bears the coloured digital raster marks added by the NLS. These marks can easily made visible subject to your expertise. 91.65.32.1 07:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

You may well be right, but if there is an issue with the free use of the image it should be raised at the image's talk page, not here. Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Da Sang
"Oot bewast da Horn o Papa, Rowin Foula doon! Owir a hidden piece o water, Rowin Foula doon! Roond da boat da tide-lumps makkin, Sunlicht trowe da cloods is brakkin; We maan geng whaar fish is takkin, Rowin Foula doon!"

It may be helpful to have a footnote for those unfamiliar with the Shetland dialect. Here is a draft 'translation', which those familiar with this tongue than I may wish to correct.

"Out beyond(?) the Horn of Papa, Rowing Foula down! Over a hidden piece of water, Rowing Foula down! Round the boat the waves(?) are making, Sunlight through the clouds is breaking; We must go where fish are taken, Rowing Foula down!"

Ben MacDui (talk ) 07:17, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The above added as a footnote to the article, with amendments from reference (although 'tide-lumps' is not a very common English expression) Ben MacDui (Talk) 21:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

"Bewast" or "Bewest" means "to the west" "Tide-lumps" seem fairly evident, either swells, or choppy water. --MacRusgail 15:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there is a direct translation for tide-lumps. Generally a tide lump is like a large wave which rises when the wind and tide are in opposite directions, and can be perhaps 10 times the height of the other waves. But I have experienced tide-lumps the size of houses in otherwise calm conditions with a strong tide running near a headland. Best way to experience them is to take the ferry across Yell Sound when tide and wind are in opposition. ;-) Shetlander57 15:18, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks - incorporated. Ben MacDui (Talk) 16:18, 22 September 2007 (UTC) PS Web references are tricky and you will see numerous examples of bad practice for every one of good. I can't say I have completely mastered it myself, but the general idea is that a url, page title, publisher, retrieval date and (if applicable) publication date should be shown. I have fixed the trawlerphotos one you provided.


 * I think there's still something a bit wrong here, I can't remember the song in it's entirety but I think that the text referring to the scent of the flowers on Papa leading the fishermen home refers to a line in the last verse, which isn't here so that could be a bit confusing. Also, and this is just a personal thought, Rowin Foula Doon could be considered as per your translation, understandably because the expression "Rowin da isle doon" refers to going about 40 miles offshore to the point where Shetland is just appearing above the horizon. Normally this referred to Ronas Hill being just visible by the Far Haaf fishermen from Gloup in Yell. I think in this instance it refers to rowing towards Foula, most likely to the Haaf, not the Far Haaf, because "Rowin Foula Doon", "Bewast", would involve being over the edge of the continental shelf, I think. Again just a personal interpretation, but I would suggest that it could cast doubt on the article. I have a few friends, more musically minded than me, including Gary Peterson, from Hom Bru, who have recorded the song, I will ask their opinion and get back to you. Shetlander57 16:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Makes sense to me, in that rowing 60 miles into the Atlantic seemed to me an unnecessary and dangerous exertion. However, by now you will understand the need to find a reliable published source to verify this. Ben MacDui (Talk) 16:26, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Dutch Loch
I'm not able to find a reasonable reference to this, so thought I'd add it to talk in the hope that somebody else can find it. Dutch Loch, I believe, is so named because of connections with the Hanseatic trade. Dutch actually being a Shetland screw-up of the German Deutz(sp?). This is just something which was told to me by a recent resident of Papa Stour. Only reference I could find was a partial reference on Shetlopedia, but I think those guys and Wiki aren't on best terms at the moment, so I ignored that. Shetlander57 01:11, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Whilst any ill-will that may exist (and their removal of their GFDL licence only hints at this) is regretable, this does not prevent Shetlopedia being a source. Ben MacDui (Talk) 16:38, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I think there may be a story behind this Dutch Loch thing. What I was told was that the German traders were referred to as Dutchies (From Deutchland sp?). A lot of locals just assume Dutch from Holland. I'll do a bit of digging around in old books and see what I can find. Your Papa Stour page is looking good anyhow, but interesting facts are worth looking for. Re: Shetlopedia as reference, may need to use that, may not. I half know one of the Shetlopedia guys who takes most of their photos, I can't see him falling out with anybody, it would be worth asking him for some photos for Wiki, I'm sure if asked he would say yes as I've seen his photos elsewhere. I have his email address from the last time he did work for me, if you're interested. Afraid Shetlopedia was too much centered on history for me to get involved as that is my worst subject. I think they're a bit of a closed club anyhow ;-) Shetlander57 19:00, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Semi automatic Peer Review
This article has a Semi automatic Peer Review to peruse to help it achieve GA status. Good luck! SriMesh | talk  02:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for your assistance. Ben MacDui (Talk)

Rewording request
". A request had been made for the Stromness lifeboat from Orkney, only 120 miles away, to launch, but the request was actioned too late to be of help." Is the word actioned the right word in this case?
 * I have heard it used often enough by military/naval types, but my dictionary does not allow for it. I'll amend it. Ben MacDui (Talk) 09:19, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Tudor quote
Thanks Kathryn - yes it is both a partial quote beginning in lower case and the word 'with' is an introduction, not a link. There is a break in the quote as well, which I omitted to be clear about. I'll fix that too. Ben MacDui (Talk) 09:19, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

GA Review
This article is well written, and well researched. It is quite interesting. I believe it mostly meets the Good Article criteria, with a few minor things that should be addressed.


 * "...variety of caves, stacks, arches, blowholes, and cliffs that are amongst the finest in Britain." -- the "finest in Britain" part is flowery language that should be removed. Done.
 * The prose is mostly very well written, although there are a couple of sentences that seem to run on a bit, and should be fixed. I think many of these can be fixed rather easily by just adding a couple of commas, but some sentences may need to be broken up into separate sentences. Hopefully fixed.
 * The 'wildlife' section seems like it might fit better if it were located closer to the 'geology' section. Consider moving it to immediately after the section, and renaming it to 'ecology', which would be a better description of the section's contents. Done.
 * The 'population' section contains very little actual text and primarily just the table data of the population history. This table data might fit better in the history section somehow, since that section already contains more details on the history of the population itself. As written, the population section fails GA criteria -- it needs to either be expanded, or eliminated/moved into the history section. Moved. (I'm curious as to which of the criteria it fails. I have a GA with just such a section that snuck through).
 * Change the title of 'references and footnotes' to simply 'references' (per WP:MOS). All citations in this section should be inline citations, and citing information in the article directly -- the subsection headings for 'general references' and 'specific references and notes' should be eliminated. The one reference under 'general references' should be moved the 'further reading' section.

I am not sure if I have achieved what you wanted here. Nor am I sure of exactly what MOS means.

a) I note that WP:GTL says " "Notes" is only for footnotes (explanations or comments on any part of the main text). "References" is only for referenced materials (books, websites etc. cited in the main text). Otherwise "Notes and references" should be combined. " However, any number of Featured Articles have sections called 'Notes' for inline citations and footnotes together, and a separate one called 'References' for general references. This does not seem to be quite what WP:GTL states, but is nevertheless fairly common practice. Haswell-Smith is definitely a 'general reference' that is referred to several times, and not just 'further reading' (implying that the documents so listed are not references).

As an aside I have two featured lists, where the reviewer specifically requested just the structure you have asked to be removed. (Perhaps the lists community interprets the above in a different way.) Anyway, my confusion aside, I hope the issues raised above are now all addressed satisfactorily. Ben MacDui (Talk) 16:33, 21 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The references format is still incorrect. There's actually two ways in which to handle the inline citations (see WP:CITE). One way is to list all inline citations in a single 'references' section, in the order in which they are used in the text. The other way is to have both a 'notes' and a 'references' section; the 'notes' section contains the listing of all inline citations in the article, and the 'references' section contains an alphabetical-ordered listing (by author name), of all the sources used as inline citations. I've actually never seen a wikipedia article that has "general references", or articles that supposedly cite "everything in the article". This is actually not recommended, as in a way, it could be construed as saying that the article was pretty much copied or modified from the article you're citing as a "general reference". If the article refers to something, it should be directly cited in the article, so that the citation is clear and not vague.


 * Whether you want to use notes/references, or just references alone, is really up to you. Both seem to be used in about equal frequency in wikipedia articles, from what I can tell. I personally favor the latter, since I don't see much of a point in having two lists of references, and many professional publications only have the chronological listing of references, but I don't care either way in wikipedia. Dr. Cash 02:16, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I have, I hope, done as you have asked.


 * I also hope you won’t mind if I do some thinking aloud. The more reviews I accumulate the more, rather than less confused I am becoming about what our house styles require. First of all I have evidently not been clear about H-Smith. I am not suggested he references everything, but that his work is the single most important reference. Most island articles of any quality have more than one, but Papa Stour seems to lack general coverage (in my library at least).


 * Secondly, I concur with your interpretation of WP:CITE, but in my defence this practice seems to be widely ignored. Cardinal-nephew is an FA from this week’s main page. It has a notes section for all citations and a references section that includes the main, but not all of the sources so used. Humpback Whale is another example retrived at random from the list of FAs. Ben MacDui (Talk) 13:20, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Cardinal-nephew seems to have the alphabetical listing of the inline citations following the citations themselves, which is acceptable. Not sure what to make of Humpback Whale, but it was promoted to FA quite a while ago, possibly under different standards that have changed. Dr. Cash 05:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Once these issues are addressed, I believe that the article would meet the GA criteria. I will place it on hold pending revisions. Cheers! Dr. Cash 18:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Article looks good, and will be listed. Cheers! Dr. Cash 04:38, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/5llfg7ncs?url=http://www.conradweb.co.uk/Papa_Stour_magazine_31_03_2006.pdf to http://www.conradweb.co.uk/Papa_Stour_magazine_31_03_2006.pdf
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 * Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/5llfg7ncs?url=http://www.conradweb.co.uk/Papa_Stour_magazine_31_03_2006.pdf to http://www.conradweb.co.uk/Papa_Stour_magazine_31_03_2006.pdf
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Insane prisoners?
"His younger son, Edwin Lindsay, an Indian army officer, was declared insane after refusing to fight in a duel and was sent to Papa Stour in the Shetland islands. He spent 26 years there as a prisoner before the Quaker preacher Catherine Watson arranged for his release in 1835. " Quote from his father's article [Alexander Lindsay, 6th Earl of Balcarres]]

If Papa Stour was used as a place to keep the insane as prisoners, it should be in the article. I am working on articles connected with the Channel Islands, which is why I make a comment here for an editor interested in this matter. I try not to be distracted by other interesting questions.--Dthomsen8 (talk) 20:32, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Dive site?
In Category Underwater diving sites in Scotland, but no mention in the text. &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter Southwood (talk): 14:21, 10 June 2021 (UTC)