Talk:Pastizz

Pastizzi
My mother and her family emigrated from Malta to NYC in the early part of the 20th century. We had pastizzi as a part of our family culinary heritage and they were one of my favorite childhood foods.

My career has been as a professional chef, and as such I have long been fascinated by the fact that the unique dough that makes pastizzi special has no counterpart in European cuisines.

It was in Singapore that I learned to make Malabar paratha which are quite popular there. The similarities of those doughs and the hand-rolling technique are unmistakable. It is equally plausible that the word paratha morphed into pastizzi in Malti.

It is an easy and logical leap to imagine that traders from southern India brought their paratha with them as they traveled across the Mediterranean and centuries ago morphed into the savory staple that are Maltese pastizzi today.

Wayne Nish


 * Possible, of course. But remember the Italian word pasticcio is the generic name for any stuffed pastry. Occam's razor tells you which explanation to favour.


 * Demdem (talk) 09:06, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Rename of page
Shouldn't this page be renamed "Pastizz" in line with WP: SINGULAR?

Demdem (talk) 19:55, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:49, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Pastizzi → Pastizz – Per WP: SINGULAR. Demdem (talk) 17:38, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:SINGULAR. Jenks24 (talk) 15:10, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

WP:PEA
"Such is its ubiquity at the heart of the Maltese psyche", in my view, is an instance of WP:PEA. You'd think the Maltese have nothing but pastizzi on their minds. Same goes for "multiple meanings"; in effect it refers to only two meanings (and "selling like pastizzi" is a similie involving not change in meaning).

Demdem (talk) 13:00, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Where did you see that phrase about the psyche (I couldn't find it in the article)? Does my last edit fix the perceived problem? In my experience, pastizz is used by English-speaking as well as Maltese-speaking Maltese; I had understood the second slang meaning to be closer to "wimp" than to "buffoon"; but perhaps I had just misunderstood? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 01:04, 22 December 2011 (UTC)


 * The reference to the psyche is some edits back. I can live with a reference to its popularity rather than the armchair psychology about Maltese minds being stuffed with pastries. I think "wimp" would be more accurate than "buffoon".


 * Demdem (talk) 16:15, 22 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I suppose that the word 'pastizz' could be used to be describe someone as a wimp, but it is also certainly used to describe someone as a buffoon - it is especially commonly used to describe someone who is incompetent, awkward or even clumsy. So I think we can agree that it has 'multiple meanings', given that it is also a word which refers to the female sexual organ and can be used idiomatically to describe something which is in great demand. Nobody said anything about Maltese minds being "stuffed with pastries". That is rather an infantile interpretation. To say that something is at the "heart of the Maltese psyche" merely means that it is much loved, referred to and very much in the spirit and language of the Maltese people. The word 'psyche' is quite common in the English language. Just because someone does not understand what a word means, that does not mean they have grounds for deleting it. Wikipedia is not here for people to shape articles into language which is simple enough for them to understand. Having originally authored this article and edited it along with a host of other contributors, it is a shame that that this matter could not have been handled in a more collegial fashion, rather than having someone crashing in and deleting contributions because they are, in their words "bla bla bla" - which I think we can take to mean "too hard or long for me to understand". Kont Dracula (talk) 17:27, 29 December 2011 (UTC)


 * What a pity that after finally deciding to engage civilly in the appropriate place to discuss an article we still see a use of tone that's unworthy of wikipedia. The point made in the previous comment seems not to be over the use of "multiple" as opposed to "other" or whether a pastry being "at the heart of the Maltese psyche" but to call other names, imply that they're stupid and posting personal comments on the user page at the point where it's bordering on harassment. And this just because this other person dared edit an article (not very long or even very well researched) you consider your very personal own.


 * At one point I used "bla, bla, bla". This was meant as shorthand, not an insult, and I apologise if I caused offence and for not having taken time to explain my reasons which are that "multiple" does not accurately describe the two non-literal meanings of the word and that the reference to the heart of the Maltese psyche (which I understand perfectly, thank you ver much) is way over the top. I'm Maltese, know quite a few other Maltese, love pastizzi but there's other things "at the heart of our psyche".


 * Demdem (talk) 17:42, 29 December 2011 (UTC)


 * It is not me who considers this article my "very personal own" but you - there have been numerous edits to this article - many of which have altered and deleted my contributions, to which I have had no issue. The vast majority of such edits were made in good faith and did not engage in the disrespectful characterisation of others' contributions. A review of the history of this article will bear this out. I do find it puzzling that you are surprised someone would find the term "bla bla bla" to describe what someone has written anything less than insulting. Anyway, from you, I can tell how difficult (though required) that apology must have been so I will accept it. I am surprised that you express concern about the length of the article and the research that went into it. I would have thought that the best way to address that would be to research the subject and add to the article, rather than trying to pick holes in others' contributions. I am well aware that there are other things "at the heart of the Maltese psyche" such as sex - which explains the common use of the word 'pastizz' to refer to the vagina, or business - which explains the common phrase 'jinbigħu bħall-pastizzi' (selling like pastizzi), or human characteristics, which explains the use of 'pastizz' to describe someone stupid, incompetent, clumsy or possibly weak or wimp-like. Actually, there is another meaning, to describe things which are happening very quickly, sometimes in a disapproving way, as in  "Avvizi Legali li jinħarġu bħall-pastizzi!" (Legal notices which are released like pastizzi). Pastizzi are more than just a food to Maltese people - they also represent something about the Maltese identity. The point of that part of the article was just to state that the word pastizz, because pastizzi are so popular, the word pastizz has multiple meanings in Maltese, which are used in all spheres of Maltese life. It wasn't meant as a dictionary item where every single possible meaning is listed. Any revision of this part of the article should capture that idea. What export, or food, for that matter would you say was a greater part of Maltese national identity than pastizzi? Kont Dracula (talk) 19:22, 29 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid there has been quite some disrespect on your part, not borne out not in this history of this article but on my userpage where you have harassed, called names, restored a deleted comment and even threatened (I did not miss that comment "I have a problem with you", by the way). Far, far more serious than my use of "bla bla bla".


 * From you, I don't expect an apology for that. But then I'm just relieved to have you off my back.


 * Demdem (talk) 21:51, 29 December 2011 (UTC)


 * So you decide to delete someone's contributions to Wikipedia on the grounds that they are "bla bla bla" but you feel threatened and harrassed by someone saying they have a problem with it? You think that you should be able to go around deleting things and you think no-one should have a problem with that? You see it as a "threat"? Please, grow up. Wikipedia is not your own little playpen.  Kont Dracula (talk) 22:13, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps I am too stupid to understand the word "psyche", I don't know. I am not too dumb, however, to recognise (a) edit-warring and (b) unreferenced material when I come across them. I have removed the disputed passage from the article as it was entirely without references except for the last sentence, for which the reference given was a newspaper article about Elton John(!). The material can be replaced in the article at any time, provided it is supported by proper references to reliable sources. Please note that the WP:BURDEN of finding such sources lies with the editor adding or restoring the material. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 00:59, 30 December 2011 (UTC)


 * By just deleting something that has been the subject of an edit war, you are not “solving” the war. You are just taking part in it. The section existed for a long time before the "edit war" started. As for the Elton John reference, well the section which you decided to delete from Wikipedia was about the word 'pastizzi' in the Maltese language and it was an example of a reference to this word being used in a Maltese publication. It was a good reference from a national newspaper which added context.  Kont Dracula (talk) 22:31, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Kont Dracula (talk) 22:13, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Spelling
Could some kind person with a good knowledge of Maltese grammar (which I regret I absolutely do not have) kindly confirm whether jinbigħu or jinbiegħu is the correct form to show in the article? Thank you. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 14:36, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The original, 'jinbiegħu' was correct. I have removed your inaccurate references to 'Maltese English. But please refrain from editing sections about language when you admit that you are not proficient in the language concerned. I think that is a fair request. You have been very pedantic and proved wrong when you sought to actually delete the section that you now seek to edit. I think now is the time to stop vandalising this article. Kont Dracula (talk) 21:24, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I asked because you wrote jinbigħu above. What language is "selling like pastizzi" if not Maltese English? Please do not continue adding unreferenced material to Wikipedia. It should be easy enough to find references for the various alternate meanings. My own dictionaries are in Malta, where sadly I am not. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:54, 6 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Well my typo above was not actually part of the article itself. I think you should at least restrict your pedantry to the article itself. The phrase "selling like pastizzi" is a Maltese phrase, translated into English. There is no such language as 'Maltese English'. I find it incredible that you would choose to appoint yourself the authority on a language you do not speak, on a section that you had previously deleted. Your contributions to this article have been destructive and inaccurate. Surely you would be better off editing articles about languages you actually speak, rather than trying to correct people who actually speak them. Also, please stop deleting information from the article. You have pedantically misunderstood the rules on verifiability. Not every single contribution to the article needs to be referenced - only ones that have been challenged or are likely to be challenged. I hope you are not challenging the fact that the word 'pastizz' is likened to the female sexual organ in Maltese. If so, you really expose your lack of understanding of Maltese. I see that you have recently received a warning for edit warring - after claiming that you were coming onto this article to end an edit war! Surely it is time to leave this article, about a section that you had previously deleted, alone.  Kont Dracula (talk) 05:15, 7 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Also, the quotation from www.alfredsant.info is not a "blog" posting. It is from a website which collates Alfred Sant's newspaper articles, parliamentary speeches etc. I can understand if you do not know who Alfred Sant is, but he happens to be the ex-Prime Minister, leader of the opposition and is also perhaps the nation's best known living novelist. The quotation referenced in this article is from an article in a national newspaper. So please stop vandalising this article. Kont Dracula (talk) 17:18, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120604014519/http://www.independent.com.mt/news.asp?newsitemid=42265 to http://www.independent.com.mt/news.asp?newsitemid=42265
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120513075412/http://www.illum.com.mt/2009/11/22/feature.html to http://www.illum.com.mt/2009/11/22/feature.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131224083826/http://parlament.mt/file.aspx?f=1083 to http://parlament.mt/file.aspx?f=1083

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the use of cheese cake and pea cake
what is the point of occasionally using cheese cake and pea cake in the article when in reality those 2 terms are rarely ever used anymore by Maltese people when talking to tourists, etc?

Living in Malta it's clear that the "English" name is no longer in favour at all (apart from the fact that is is literally incorrect as it's not a cake but anyway). And rightly so. Who translates pizza to flatbread, or paella and risotto to rice? no one.

I suggest that pea cake and cheese cake are replaced by ricotta pastizz and pea pastizz in the article.

IsaacBTTF (talk) 22:02, 1 January 2024 (UTC)