Talk:Pattern 1914 Enfield

Untitled
work in progress--TGC55 00:50, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008
Article reassessed and graded as start class. --dashiellx (talk) 20:15, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Based on the Ross?
I don't know how this rumour gor started, but the .276 was nothing like the Ross. "It has often been stated that the .276 Enfield, the cartridge for which the British Pattern 1913 rifle was designed, was similar to or identical with the .280 Ross. That statement has appeared in print and has been blindly repeated over the years. But it is not true.

The .280 Ross is a long, tapered, cartridge, with a case length of 2.59" and a cartridge overall length of 3.5". The .276 Enfield has a case length of 2.35" and a COL of 3.23", shorter than the .30-'06, and only about 0.17" longer than the .303 British.

While the English designers may have wanted to duplicate or exceed the ballistics of the .280 Ross, they did not use the same cartridge, or even one "similar".

Where the .276 Enfield is distinctly different from the .303 is its base diameter. It has a rebated rim, with a base diameter of .525" and a rim diameter of .515". So it is not a long cartridge, but is a fat one, though not as fat at the base as the .280 Ross."

Here's the .Ross (with a .303):

I can't find a picture of the .276 Enfield, but the .280 British of the Forties was very similar:




 * Ok, not hearing any dissent I'm deleting the Rioss reference.Solicitr (talk) 16:53, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, there is a photo of the .276 Enfield on the Spanish language site Municion.org: http://www.municion.org/7mm/276Enfield.htm --172.190.63.65 (talk) 01:36, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Not only may the P14s and P17s not have been used in the Great War, but their existence may have been forgotten. I worked for three months in 1950 in the Cost Office at BSA, filling in time between Cambridge University and being called up for National Service in the RAF. One of the jobs we were costing was the conversion of these rifles into sporting weapons. BSA had bought rifles on several occasions, a typical price was six shillings and eightpence each. I was told that the existence of the rifles had been forgotten and they were not brought into use in 1940 when we were desperately short of rifles to arm the Home Guard. (BSA did overhaul 138,000 Winchester rifles which had been stored at Woolwich since 1918.) The guns at Enfield were in their original packing cases. BSA technicians collected the rifles from Enfield and were allowed to select those in best condition. What douceur may have been given I do not know. The P14's magazine could not be closed when it was empty as the bolt could not roll over the magazine plate. This was cured by chamfering the end of the plate. The rifles had been proofed when they were made and BSA assumed no further proofing was required. The Master of the Birmingham Proof House noticed boxes of weapons which he had not checked being delivered to Parker Hale's warehouse and he protested that they should be proofed again and it was done. The detail about the Winchesters comes from the BSA history but the rest is anecdotal and I am recording memories of 66 years ago so I cannot claim what I have written is more than interesting tittle tattle. I got the impression that Enfield assembled parts made by BSA rather than manufactured them themselves. Parts for the Bren Gun were made at BSA's Mansfield factory. My father, head of the Material Order Department at BSA, explained to me when I was about eight how the Bren worked and told me in about 1938 that eleven Czech technicians came to BSA to set up production. One of them gave me some Czech coins as a memento. One of the Czechs became head of BSA Guns after the war. Manufacture of Lee-Enfields was based at the BSA factory in Blossomfield Road, Shirley, built as one of the 'Shadow Factories' in preparation for war. My mother worked there for 21 years after my father's early death in 1941. BSA had 28 factories and took control of another 39. The factory complexes at Armoury Road and Coventry Road, Birmingham, divided by the railway, were gigantic.G W Gardiner (talk) 19:46, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Sniping and the Great War
The article mentions (and most others on-line that I've seen agree) that the P14 was used primarily as a sniper rifle during the First World War. However, Martin Pegler in Out Of Nowhere mentions that the definitive sniper variant, the Pattern 1914 1*W (T) didn't reach the front in time to see much actual use, if any at all. I am, therefore, left wondering whether or not the P14 saw any service at all as a sniper rifle during the Great War, every internet "source" on the P14 notwithstanding. Is it possible, perhaps, that "unofficial" sniper versions of the P14 were used prior to the belated introduction of the 1*W (T)?--63.3.21.1 (talk) 21:45, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

P14s were employed for sniping prior to the introduction of the definitive (T) variant. Standard examples were used as sniper rifles, as the P14 was considered to be more accurate at short range than the Lee-Enfield. There was a proper open-sighted sniper variant, consisting of a Mk1*W fitted with a rear sight capable of fine elevation adjustment (but not windage, interestingly). This rear sight closely resembles the standard one, but has a small knob on top. This rifle was designated the Mk1*W(F) (for 'fine adjustment'). Skennerton's book "The British Sniper" contains a lot of information on P14 sniper variants. Strangways (talk) 18:22, 12 November 2010 (UTC)