Talk:Pederasty in ancient Greece

SmallJarsWithGreenLabels why did you remove my edit that had direct ancient Greek text citation?
He reverted it with the illogical reasoning of "please do not take this revert as an attempt to push particular views. Feel free to re-add information with proper"

These are not my particular views, that was the law in ancient Athens, pederasty was punishable by death. This is not an opinion but a hardcore fact according to direct ancient Greek texts.

Almost all the misleading citation sources on this page dont even mention direct ancient Greek texts and their etymology.

Please do not remove direct ancient Greek texts evidence just because of your opinion and the opinions of people that did not even use direct ancient Greek texts and etymology as evidence. Itisme3248 (talk) 20:28, 23 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The whole page is literally filled with misconceptions based on mistranslations of ancient Greek texts by non-Greek people. This page is extremely misleading and only reflects the biased view of modern western "historians" who simply read badly translated ancient Greek texts. None of the sources in this page actually cite direct ancient Greek text evidence and etymology. Itisme3248 (talk) 20:32, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * There wont be many secondary sources to add because western historians simply try to find evidence of "pederasty" based on mistranslated texts. Actual Greeks dont bother making peer reviewed papers on this because the ancient Greek texts are clear, pederasty was banned. Itisme3248 (talk) 20:36, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Note: I have begun a discussion about this at itisme's talk page. small jars 22:04, 23 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Creador de Mundos is the user who changed the meaning of Xenophon's texts to imply that the relationship was partially pederastic/sexual. That is very suspicious that someone would suddenly sneakily change the meaning like that. He kept adding little things, twisting the meaning of other stuff too. Very suspicious.
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece&diff=prev&oldid=901255543 Itisme3248 (talk) 00:47, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I have reverted to the last version before 's edits. Their edits have repeatedly misquoted the law as cited in Against Timarchus: the text they inserted included the line ...shall be liable to the penalties prescribed for the seduction of free-born youth and he shall be punished with death, but the edition cited  include the clause and he shall be punished with death.  This is such an egregious POV-pushing fabrication that I have simply reverted to the last version before these edits started. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 09:54, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * To be clear, he shall be punished with death does appear in the cited edition, but further up the passage and for a different but apparently related crime. This could then be put down to a bad and disorganised writing process as much as intentional distortion, though I'm not saying the latter is unlikely either. small jars 11:02, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Why are you lying? You are 100% lying. Read the texts:
 * [The teachers of the boys shall open the school-rooms not earlier than sunrise, and they shall close them before sunset. No person who is older than the boys shall be permitted to enter the room while they are there, unless he be a son of the teacher, a brother, or a daughter's husband. If any one enter in violation of this prohibition, he shall be punished with death. The superintendents of the gymnasia shall under no conditions allow any one who has reached the age of manhood to enter the contests of Hermes together with the boys. A gymnasiarch who does permit this and fails to keep such a person out of the gymnasium, shall be liable to the penalties prescribed for the seduction of free-born youth. Every choregus who is appointed by the people shall be more than forty years of age.]”
 * There were penalties for seducing the youth. Nothing is fabricated.
 * The whole wiki page is pushing propaganda without even citing actual ancient texts. Yes there were gay pederasts in ancient Greece but it was limited to a small elite circle just like Epstein island, you can't claim that modern Americans are openly pederasts. Itisme3248 (talk) 18:36, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The actions ofCaeciliusinhorto-public appear to be biased. Why did you not fix the actual distortion made by this person? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece&diff=prev&oldid=901255543
 * "but only if it was based around friendship and love and not solely around physical, sexual attractin"
 * Xenophon did not say at all that "if its a bit sexual its ok, just not too much". He straight up said there must be no sexual attraction. Itisme3248 (talk) 18:38, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I request that Caeciliusinhorto-public be punished for accusing me of fabricating a real quote. He is obviously biased and lies in order to remove the original text
 * Here is evidence of the text:
 * http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0002:speech=1:section=12
 * Original ancient Greek text: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Aeschin.+1+12&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0001 Itisme3248 (talk) 18:50, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * there is a snowball's chance in hell that any of your percieved problems with the article will be solved through the course of action you are currently pursuing. Caeciliusinhorto did not lie and personal attacks are unacceptable. Your main argument, that the article should be based directly on ancient Greek texts, flies in the face of policies and guidlines (WP:OR & WP:RS) that you have apparently yet to read. small jars 20:08, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I explained on my blog of why this wiki page is based on misconception by secondary inaccurate sources.
 * https://genes-of-the-ancients.blogspot.com/2023/04/the-myth-of-openly-ancient-greek.html Itisme3248 (talk) 03:34, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * As I have already pointed out in both my edit summaries and on this talkpage thread, the content that you have reverted back into the article misrepresents the primary sources it claims to quote. Please self-revert and join the discussion here. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 19:45, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * It does not misrepresent anything at all, matter of fact the so called "sources" of this wiki are irrelevant books made by biased authors who misrepresented everything based on mistranslations of ancient Greek texts. Itisme3248 (talk) 00:17, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Suggestion to revise
I am nowhere near qualified to revise this entry, but it seems to be missing an extremely important recent source that challenges some of what is written here: James Davdison's The Greeks and Greek Love. Even if one disagrees, his book is important. 2603:6011:6144:1E4D:9C29:FA84:AB0F:B711 (talk) 18:16, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Should this merge with pederasty?
I think that there are several pages about pederasty and ancient Greek relationships with boys. It makes more sense to conflate the pages. Norabur (talk) 03:25, 4 December 2023 (UTC)


 * yes exactly! Norabur (talk) 03:25, 4 December 2023 (UTC)