Talk:Petar II Petrović-Njegoš/Archive 1

"Serbian Orthodox"
This is a misrepresentation. If the point of this statement was about Njegos' religion, it should say "Eastern Orthodox," or "Christian Orthodox." There is no such religion as "Serbian Orthodox." This can also be viewed as a weak attempt to nationally relabel Njegos and as such should be removed. Let's try to keep politics and ultra-nationalism out of this article, shall we? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.77.4.129 (talk) 14:04, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Serbian Orthodox does exist, as does Russian, Greek, Albanian, Bulgarian and so on. It is not "Political" but the statement of Njegos himself.dzaja (talk) 21:00, 25 April 2016 (UTC)dzajic90

Njegos considered himself as SERB! All his poetry and works are ABOUT SERBS! Serbs live in Montenewgro and speak Serbian language! All family names are Serbian! In communist time Serbo-croatian/Montenegrian/Bosniac languages were invented and are still USED HERE in this article! Montenegrins is used instead Serbian! THIS IS real MANIPULATION. Did Vatican's Jesuits work on this article? From their hidden caves?

Move
E, ne bi smelo tako da se premesta. Ako niko nema nista protiv, postavicu zahtev za "pravim" premestanjem clanka na ovu adresu. Nikola 22:13, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Episcope
According to page 838 of the Shorter OED, episcope refers either to "An optical projector giving images of opaque object" or to the "pastoral supervision exercised by a bishop". I don't get why we don't just use "bishop", because that's a correct translation, and the one most English speakers would recognise. --estavisti 13:54, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm, agreed. Although, we would have to replace Episcopate by Bishopric elsewhere as well. --HolyRomanEmperor 11:45, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I would agree. Prince-bishop is the traditional way it is translated in ALL English-language texts I have read on this topic and I have read quite a lot. Bezvardis 14:43, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Translate/remove Serbian text
Please either translate the Serbian text into English (since this is English Wiki) or remove it because it only takes up space and does not provide any information for those who don't speak Serbian. In general I also don't think that quotes of Njeguš actually fit the style and purpose of encyclopedia, so I would suggest rephrasing them or ommitting them altogether. Bezvardis 14:33, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

--- --- This article really needs some clean up. 25 august 2006

Working on it. Sideshow Bob 00:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Reference to Venice Removed.
the following was removed since in 1830 Republic of Venice wasn't on Earth anymore, since it was dissolved in 1795!

On 22 November 1830, Prince-Bishop Rade wrote a letter to Jeremija Gagić regarding the Governor's rebellion:
 * Another great headache(concern) got me. Our mister Governor Vukolaj Radonjić went to the Kotor area, to (start an) upheaval, without anyone knowing but completely willfully, wherefore he met with some Venetian general and other Venetians, intending to hand them over Montenegro and put it under their patronage, thinking that without any malice that after Vladika's death there are no sons of the Petrovic dynasty in Montenegro and allies of glorious Russia.

I think it's better to ask montenegro history experts for an interpretation of this letter.

93.35.149.103 (talk) 22:20, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Ethnicity disputed, subjective "informations" can be found
First thing, ther are no sources Njegoš was a Serb, they consider him Serbian writer for no good reason. He wrote in Montenegrin language and was, by his nationality, a Montengrin.

Answer - have you ever read enything from Njegos? - he wrote only about Serbs and considered himself as a Serb! There is no such thing as montenegrian language - serbian is montenegrian, 100%! Why such lies? HALO WIKIPEDIA PEOPLE - EHY DO YOU ALLOW SUCH LIES TO BE PUBLISH HERE? JUSITS' WORK TO SPLIT SERBIAN / SLAVIC BROTHERS?

Thing wich needs to be explain here, what is nationality, well, "Nationality is membership of a nation or sovereign state." Since Montenegro was an independent state during Njegoš's rule, he is a Montenegrin. It is so disputed that he was a Serb and at the same time, ruler of Montenegro.

Second thing, he was a leader of Montenegrin Orthodox Church not Serbian, since a Montenegrin O. Church existef far before 1990. Well, in 1766, after Pećinska Patriarchy was dissolved, Montenegrin Church becomed autocephalous church of Montenegrin State. And, what I can also say about this, ther are no connection with Serbian Orthodox Church.

Notice, Petar Petrović Njegoš wore white klobuk, and according to Canon law, only leaders of autocephalous churches may wore white klobuk.

Reference, if you don't bealive me :D - Susherin, Ivan Kornilevich. From peasant to patriarch, p. 188. ISBN 978-0-7391-1579-4 ; ther, find word klobuk and explanation.

For now... --Wusten fuchs 19:18, 5 April 2011 (UTC) Blocked sock: Wustenfuchs
 * The Montenegrin Orthodox Church (Serbian: Црногорска православна црква, ЦПЦ / Crnogorska Pravoslavna Crkva, CPC) is an Orthodox Christian organization acting in Montenegro and Montenegrin emigration circles - e.g. the village of Lovćenac in Serbia's northern province of Vojvodina) and the Montenegrin emigration colony in Argentina. It was created as an NGO movement in 1993 by the political forces eminent for Montenegro's secession from Yugoslavia, being recognized in 1999 as a religious community and gaining religious community. However, it remains canonically unrecognized and only claims over the canonical jurisdiction of the Serbian Orthodox Church, in prime its legal Metropolitanate of Montenegro and the Littoral.
 * Montenegrin language became the official language of Montenegro with the ratification of a new constitution on 22 October 2007. The Montenegrin standard is still emerging. Its orthography was established 10 July 2009, with the addition of two letters to the alphabet, though grammar and a school curriculum are yet to be approved.
 * And for ethnicity, well, It was already agreed that it is Serbian. Also, his nationality IS Montenegrin, but he is of Serb ethnicity. Therefor, and per all presented references in this and related articles, i will revert this info. Please note that you need references for that things you claim, and if you dont have them, then we cannot use that in article. Thanks! All best! -- WhiteWriter speaks 20:03, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, even though it's not whole turth you said, I'll turn to nationality, he is, by his nationality a Montenegrin. Since is very late, and I don't have will to search books at this time, we'll discuss about Montenegrin/Serbian Orthodox Church later. Do not change nationality. He is a Montenegrin.--Wusten fuchs 21:57, 7 April 2011 (UTC)  Blocked sock:  Wustenfuchs

Ok, now, see this image here? It's a Constitution of Montenegro, writen in 1905. You can clearly see it says that Montenegrin Orthodox Church is autocephalous. This crushes your own claim that it was established in 1990-is. And now, we have a problem here. It's not important was this church recognized by other Orthodox Churches, but what is important it's a status of this church in it's state. And it was autocephalous, after Pećinska Patriarchy was dissolved, Montenegrin Orthodox Church becomed autocephalous in 1766.--Wusten fuchs 18:48, 8 April 2011 (UTC)  Blocked sock:  Wustenfuchs
 * Well, you are welcome to present sources for that. As far as we know, and per wiki article of the same subject, and per my personal knowledge, the church we know today as Montenegrin Orthodox Church was founded in 1993. Please stop reverting, you need SOURCES for that. One paper means little if other churches didn't recognize it. First bring sources, and then we will agree. Also, this is not my own claim, it is well known fact supported by sources. As far as we know, international community find this church unrecognized, and if you think that MOC becomed autocephalous in 1766, that is only self-proclaimed, and therefor. not good for international wikipedia. Metropolitan Mihailo, MOC's leader, was ин 1997 excommunicated by the Holy Synod of the Ecumenical Orthodox Patriarchate of Constantinople from the Eastern Orthodox Church. MOC's leader is anathemized by the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople and banished from Orthodoxy. That is offical international attitude, and this church is founded in 1993.
 * All of this is just copy paste from wiki and other subjects we care for in here. Please, just bring some good neutral international sources, and we will see. -- WhiteWriter speaks 20:13, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh, not important, I don't whant to repeat same thing over and over, we leave church out of this :D Let me back to nationality. First, are you aware what word Nation means? Well, I'll qoute: "Contemporary definitions of the word Nation often focus on the idea of a country or sovereign state." Ok, let us go to the nationality, " Nationality is membership of a nation or sovereign state.". And let us to compae this with Njegoš. Nation often focus on the idea of a country or sovereign state, in this case, Theocratic Montenegro, wich was an independent state ruled by Vladika that is Prince-Bishop of Montenegro. Njegoš's nationality is, acording to a definition of nationality, Montenegrin because he is a member of Montenegrin nation and Montenegrin sovereign state.--Wusten fuchs 21:15, 10 April 2011 (UTC)  Blocked sock:  Wustenfuchs
 * I already told you that he may be Montenegrin nationality, but he is of Serb ethnicity. If you dont stop reverting without discussion first, i will be forced to ask for some administrators help. Thanks. FAQ is anyway out of article space, so as i dont want to explain all over again the same things, all of the information's from there where ALREADY agreed in the past. None of those edits are my personal attitude, all is just representation of the contemporary wikipedia consensuses. -- WhiteWriter speaks 16:07, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Why not have two FAQS - one saying "what is his ethnicity" and the other "what is his nationality? You could even have one question saying "what is his ethnicity and nationality". Answer "he is an ethnic Serb of Montenegran nationality" or whatever the answer is. Fainites barley scribs 21:52, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Psudo-Tsar
Is the spelling of "psudo" here from a source or for a spcific reason, as it is normally spelled "Pseudo" in English.Fainites barley scribs 17:55, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

That should have been pseudo. However, the title of the work is usually translated as The False Tsar Stephen the Small, so I'll correct it. Vladimir (talk) 15:27, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

"Great Serbia" political ideology does not finished in 21. century
Can administrators please, stop the writing Montenegrin history on "Great Serbia" political ideology and respect history of Montenegro and montenegrins. The nationality of Petrović noble house was Vlach and not Serbian. You can see here:

http://www.madeinmontenegro.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=63

Sincerly, --84.255.193.151 (talk) 19:38, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Njegos sayd he is a Serb, than he is a Serb and finish. By the way one of the most agressiv actours of "Great Serbia" was the family Petrovic in Montengro. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.112.251.67 (talk) 00:29, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * And not to mention "reliable" madeinmontenegro.com... -- WhiteWriterspeaks 14:47, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Unscholarly comments
First read: Wikipedia's Mountain Wreath before quoting the unscholarly comments of Srdja Pavlović, Sells, quoting The New York Times (27 July 2008) and other newspapers and using references from questionable sources..... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.117.246 (talk • contribs) 05:41, 14 November 2012

Ethnicity vs. Nationality
The man's nationality is not in question. Everyone admits that he was Montenegrin (i.e. from Montenegro.) However, some IPs hold the bizarre assertion that he was not an ethnic Serb. Before coming here and screaming about how this page is rampant with "Serbian nationalism" or that "Njegos himself said he was not a Serb...look at madeinmontenegro.com...", read the academic sources cited in this article and then tell me that Njegos was not ethnically Serb. Also, read some of his works (i.e. The Mountain Wreath and The Serbian Mirror). 23 editor (talk) 18:16, 11 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The problem lies in Montenegrin users adhering to the "popular" anti-Serb course, that despite (in this case) historical figures being described as and explicitly stating their Serb ethnicity (and even belonging to the Serbian nation), they are not. Nationality has never been questioned, though I understand many ex-Yugoslavs confuse the term with ethnicity.--Z oupan 13:06, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Ethnicity and Religious Institution
Njegos was a member of Montenegrin ruling dynasty Petrovic, and both him and his predecessors and successors were ethnic Montenegrins, and not foreigners like some users are falsly claiming.

In addition, the statement that he belonged to Serbian Orthodox Church is also false, he was the head of autonomous Montenegrin church called, in native tongue, "Cetinjska Mitropolija", which became part of Serbian Orthodox Church in 1918 after Montenegro had been annexed to Serbia, therefore after Njegos' time.


 * Sources? Reliable...sources? 23 editor (talk) 02:04, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

First name
Djilas writes: "Njegoš never signed himself Radivoje, his real name and its common form, but rather Radivoj. Someone, perhaps Sarajlija, must have told him that it was more correct and more beautiful." I would ask anyone thinking of reverting to Radivoj to please refrain from doing so. 23 editor (talk) 01:43, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

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