Talk:Petar Poparsov

Untitled
Read this. Nationality can't be bought with money, not to mention with serbisation or macedonisation. Bomac 22:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Tell that to Misirkov who applied for stipends in the Serbian, Russian and Bulgarian government, and switched nationality every time he got rejected.   /FunkyFly.talk_  22:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I cannot tell him that. I guess you know why. Misirkov told what he had to say - On Macedonian Problems.


 * Yes, his biography tells another story.   /FunkyFly.talk_  22:11, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Bomac, Greek leftists want Greece to drop the naming issue and let the whole world recognize you as "Macedonia" - does that (the fact that they disagree with Greek state policy) stop them being Greek? --Tēlex 22:05, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The documents about BMARC, including the statute, are in the Central Government Archive in Sofia, btw.   /FunkyFly.talk_  22:10, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Let me repeat what is in the article: "The best proof of the aims and tasks of the Young Macedonian Literary Society was provided during the following year when its members became either founders of or active participants in "The Committee for Obtaining the Political Rights Given to Macedonia by the Congress of Berlin" from which, as Petar Pop Arsov says, there later developed the so-called VMRO. " Where is BMARC here? I already mention that we don't even know when, or where the organization was formed - Solun, Shtip or Resen, and FunkyFly is using the BMARC argument to proclaim this person a Bulgarian even though there isn't single reference of him stating he is Bulgarian. And as for planning stage, Telex, I guess Pulevski was not aware of it, nor Gologanov. --Cigor 22:32, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The reference is that he himself drafted and signed the statute of an organization exclusively for Bulgarians. Again, fighting for policital authonomy of Macedonia is irrelevant here.   /FunkyFly.talk_  22:35, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Where is the reference that he himself signed this?--Cigor 22:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Read the book of Tatarchev.   /FunkyFly.talk_  22:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Look FF, if you have anything to add value to this article by providing exact references please do. Otherwise, stop vandalising.--Cigor 22:39, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Vandalizing? Speak for yourself. Here: Христо Татарчев, Вътрешната македоно-одринска революционна организация като митологична и реална същност, София 1995.   /FunkyFly.talk_  22:40, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Stop dodging. Provide Tatarchev quote mentioning Pop Arsov doing something what you are claiming.--Cigor 22:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Signing may be a metaphor. To join the closest thing you could get to a Greek equivalent - the Filiki Eteria - you had to swear an oath. --Tēlex 22:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Following that logic, Todor Aleksandrov is Macedonian, after all he signed Majski manifest. FF know what am I talking about. --Cigor 22:47, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

There goes Telex with one of his mindless reverts. Telex what do you know about Petar Pop Arsov? Have you even heard of him before FF asking you to help him? --Cigor 22:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The whole thing is a big conspiracy aimed at the negation of the Macedonian nation, financed by the Bulgarian government.   /FunkyFly.talk_  23:05, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't know about that, but you are going to tell me that Telex come out of nowhere with a strong opinion about Pop-Arsov. Pathetic. --Cigor 23:12, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * And here's another man with a "strong opinion" about the issue. ;-) Better said they automatically revert when they see "Macedonian". ;-) Bomac 23:32, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Clarification needed
Bomac erased the phrase, "which was initially called the Bulgarian Macedonian-Adrianople Revolutionary Committees;". QUESTION. My impression is that there existed such an organisation, or something named like it. Is this so and was it related to Pop Arsov? Thank you. Politis 14:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Politis, there's an interesting conversation at Nikola Karev about this... --FlavrSavr 02:08, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Stambolovism
Here are the parts in which Pop Arsov speaks of the Bulgarian propaganda in Macedonia and of the Macedonian ethnicity: (from mkWiki): Stambolovism in Macedonia and its representatives. --Bomac 11:37, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The funny part is here is a man who spend his whole political life fiercly opposed to Bulgarian propaganda, who was Macedonian - in all meaning, political, ethnic, and yet he is tagged as Bulgarian revol. where Macedonian is deleted. Yes, there is Macedonian but what does it means? Obviously he is not Greek nor Albanian. --Cigor 13:27, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * And how do we know about his Macedonian ethnicity? And why would he think of the "B" in BMARC?   /FunkyFly.talk_  17:27, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I will let you to explain what he thought about "B" in BMARC since you mention finding references about him (Tatarcev, etc). As for references by him, he does not mention any BMARC. --Cigor 17:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Из "Произход на революционното движение в Македония и първите стъпки на Солунския Комитет за придобиване политическите права на Македония, дадени й от Берлинския договор" в "Бюлетин на Временното представителство на обединената бивша Вътрешна македонска революционна организация", брой №8 от 19 юли 1919, стр. 2-3: Петър Поп Арсов

....Бруталната политика на посърбяване, която отричаше всяко човешко достойнство у македонските българи и жестоко нараняваше националното им чувство - създаде в душата на тоя милионен български народ една трагедия, която ставаше още по-страшна пред вид на това, че посърбяването означаваше не само денационализиране, ами и повръщане на македонските българи под ведомството на Гръцката патриаршия, против която бяха водили дългогодишна кървава борба и едва се бяха изкопчили от вампирските й нокти. Лозунгът беше: далече от България! Не за това, че тя беше виновница за положението в Македония, ами защото всяко подозрение за нейна намеса можеше да напакости и ней, и на делото, което трябваше да си запази своя чисто вътрешен македонски характер. Върху тези ясни и точно определени основи се образува първия таен "Комитет за придобиване политическите права на Македония, дадени й от Берлинския договор", от който сетне се разви тъй наречената Вътрешна М. Р. организация. Тоя комитет се образува в Солун при края на 1893 г., когато в България властваше Стамболов, известен не само със своята приятелска политика спрямо Австрия и Турция, но и с гоненията против македонците заради русофилството им: той не можа да търпи даже и македонската спестовна каса, основана от д-р Н. Янчев - съмняваше се да не би в нея да се крие някой руски дявол....213.130.72.22 14:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Ethnicity
Please refer to the statute of BMARC at IMRO and the discussion page at Talk:Yane Sandanski. ForeignerFromTheEast 22:10, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Death place
According to Boris Nikolov in his fundamental work "Internal Macedonian-Adrianople Organization. Voivodes and Leaders. Biographical and Bibliographical Reference Book"(Sofia 2001, p. 134) (Николов, Борис Й. Вътрешна Македоно-Одринска революционна организация. Войводи и ръководители. биографично-библиографски справочник. София 2001, с. 134) Poparsov died in Kostenets. Are there some serious sources about Sofia as a place of his death?--Males (talk) 18:48, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Sockpuppets
Please, stop vandalizing the article! Jingby (talk) 15:53, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

@Laveol
is this really so important to you to open such a discussion? i changed the places because it really might sound strange to a non-informed person to read such a sentence, no matter if there was such a country at that time or not. bulgarian lands were under ottoman rule too when poparsov was born. Icaf (talk) 15:54, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, and? HOw could someone find it strange since he does not actually know the ethnicity of that man. And no - being born in the region of Macedonia does not automatically make you a present-day ethnic Macedonian. -- L a v e o l  T 16:03, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * i did not say anything about his ethnicity, but you will probably agree that it sounds strange presenting the view of today's neighboring country first. Icaf (talk) 16:27, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Um, not?! How is it strange? At the time all of them were regarded and self-identified as Bulgarians. How is it strange. And since we already have had this dispute a number of times and the only neutral arbiter is the alphabet, B tends to go in front of M. And that's that. -- L a v e o l  T 16:39, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * So because you believe in this fiction it does not mean others have to read such stuff here on wikipedia. Icaf (talk) 18:05, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Please give arguments or logical explanations. Instead you insist on nationalist positions and even increase the POV in this article. If you think Macedonians are Bulgarians, then do it, it is your problem. Please be rational and do not write in barbaric 19th century styles. Icaf (talk) 18:11, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Please, refrain from personal attacks. Now further: Unlike you I have provided sources for my edits. They are third-party sources (non-RoM and non-BG). I do not insist on ethnic Macedonians being Bulgarian. You can see my position on the subject all over the project. I insist, though, that third-party scholars regard this man (who by the way lived quite a few years of his life in the very same XIX century that you seem to despise) a Bulgarian. And that's it. If you have sources on the subject, use them. If no, please, do not delete sourced content. -- L a v e o l  T 19:25, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * If you find your sources you can just put it the way it was. Or maybe with a sentence that scholars do not have a unified position or something. That's since I couldn't find any supporting the claim of him being an ethnic Macedonian. I've got a Bulgarian scholar supporting the opposite position in English, though. A ref about the official doctrine position in the Republic of Macedonia would be a nice addition (I think it's common sense now that every person born in the region is regarded as such in RoM, but I've been unable to locate a source on MKpedia). The only source is actually supporting the Bulgarian claims. SO, try working with sources, please. -- L a v e o l  T 19:35, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Disputed
Jingiby Petar Pop Arsovs identity is disputed both in English academics and Bulgarian, Macedonian and many more. The most accurate and most NPOV version we can present Petar Pop Arsov is that he was simply a Bulgarian teacher and nothing else, if you have an issue with this here please discuss other then that im adding the POV tag unless we've reached on a agreeded upon compromise. Gurther (talk) 17:31, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Everything in the history is disputed. Wikipedia aims to present the different views in accordance with their support among the international community of researchers. Jingiby (talk) 18:39, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Jingiby, Yes everything is in dispute, which is why its more accurate that we do not label him as a Macedonian Bulgarian, wikipedia fights for neutrality and we should stick to those grounds, breaking those guidelines can lead to tensions and chaotic and unwanted edit wars. Gurther (talk) 18:43, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Gurther, I’d kindly ask YOU to not start edit wars yourself. If he was indeed just a Bulgarian teacher, keep it that way. Not with your biased edits as your own page had Ivan Vazov as Macedonian. Calm your propaganda down, keep neutrality and think objectively. Nikolay.rusev (talk) 23:10, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello Nikolay.rusev do not accuse editors of promoting propaganda, it violates Wikipedia guidelines and i also advise for you to practice WP:GOOD FAITH towards your editors, Ivan Vazov isn't related to this conversation so i have no clue why you've mentioned him. Gurther (talk) 05:51, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, accusing of propaganda when one sees it. The person I mention above is just to hint editors who actually care what goes next and have a look at your deeds. So again, please stop starting edit wars on articles where it does not suits your agenda. Nikolay.rusev (talk) 07:38, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello Nikolay.rusev, i advise for you to read up on WP:Good Faith and WP:ACCUSE since you are currently violating both. No edit war has began over Petar Pop Arsov, an edit war only begins when it breaks the three revert rule so no edit war has begun, i still dont see how Ivan Vazov is related to this. Gurther (talk) 07:56, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You clearly stated on your page,that indeed Ivan Vazov the poet, is Macedonian. So I ask, what sources you have to make such claims if you were not to push propaganda on Wiki. Please, read up WP:NPOV when you begin your edits. Nikolay.rusev (talk) 08:08, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Nikolay.rusev, this is not a forum nor is it connected to the subject, if you really do not like my claims then freely dispute Ivan Vazov at my talk page, if you continue to argue about unrelated topics here your post will be removed. Gurther (talk) 08:15, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Gurther, if something in an article is controversial, it should be clarified what it is and with the help of reliable sources supporting the dispute. No such academic sources are presented, but on the contrary, there are those presented in the article that support the opposite thesis. Moreover, two editors see no reason for such a dispute. This means subjectivity and a lack of neutrality on the part of the person challenging the article's neutrality. The article presents in a balanced way the main points of view currently existing on its subject. Nothing is self evident and this tag was not justified. I am removing the tag for the reasons listed above. Regards. Jingiby (talk) 12:50, 12 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Jingiby please do not remove tags without reaching a proper compromise, i also advice you wait for the other sides response first before removing or making dubious edits, these sources in which you've used to claim that Pop Arsov was a Macedo-Exarchist aren't really reliable, some of the sources do not even call him that but mention how he used the term "Macedono-Exarchist" towards his compratiots which isnt related at all, since neither of us can agree on a compromise i've decided to report this issue to Wikipedia:Third Opinion that way someone who isn't bias can intervine and resolve the issue. Gurther (talk) 15:03, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Is it just the lead sentence of which you're disputing the neutrality? -- Local hero talk 17:55, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
 * the Intro and lead sentence is disputed (although some sections in the article aren't very neutral aswell). Gurther (talk) 18:13, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

A friendly advice
I came here from WP:3O, I am not taking up this 3O request since I do not know complexities of the topic area and also dispute summary has not been presented in clear manner. Some other 3O advisor may provide opinion. I am here to provide my friendly advice on other aspects as an uninvolved observer.

Happy editing &#32;Bookku   (talk) 03:08, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Both sides need to summaries issues in a way uninitiated uninvolved observer should understand what dispute is all about.
 * IMO Any user should have right to contest content through WP:DR in civil manner. And every other user should respect other user's right to WP:DR in sporting spirit.
 * WP:NPOV seem to allow reasoned tagging for to attract other editors to assess and provide inputs. I do not find any reasons to be afraid of getting additional attention and inputs through tagging while WP:DR discussions are underway. Though there is no need of reverts over tagging either from either side.
 * There seem to be attempts of personalizing dispute by some editors, I suppose that is unhelpful. Focus on content dispute and not on user.


 * @Gurther and @Jingiby I suggest both of you to take your set of sources @ WP:RSN forum and get community guidance on credibility of sources used for claims about ethnicity Petar Poparsov
 * @Gurther even after WP:RSN feed back and closure of discussion there if you are not satisfied with with result you can begin WP:RfC procedure at this talk page (if RfC is not done there itself).
 * @Gurther I understand that many small communities and nationalities may have different perceptions about their own historiography than that presented in Academic or News sources accepted by WP community as reliable. But one needs to understand until policies do not go under change one need to cooperate in following existing policies as they are.
 * &#32;Bookku   (talk) 17:04, 13 April 2023 (UTC).

Short summary
This is a small text made for explaining the current situation for anyone coming from the WP:3O committee this summary will be quite short so if you have any questions freely check the edit history of the wiki or you can ask us this question.


 * Jingiby recent edits on Pop Arsov claim that he was a Macedono Bulgar


 * I wanted Pop arsov not to be labeled as a Macedono Bulgar because back then the concept of a ethnic identity wasn't properly formed thanks to the Millet system used by the Ottoman empire.


 * I want Petar Pop Arsov to be labeled as a revolutionary from Macedonia and a Bulgarian teacher (Bulgarian teacher does not equal to a Bulgarian but instead it meant a teacher who was hired by the Bulgarian church


 * Jingiby wants Pop arsov to be labeled as a Macedono Bulgar which disrupts the neutrality

If you have any questions feel free to ask them here Gurther (talk) 06:41, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
 * In the last 10 years, Poparsov appears here as a Bulgarian or a Macedonian Bulgarian, and this has not been contested on the talk page. This is also supported by the overwhelming majority of secondary and tertiary credible sources. There is no reason to change it. Jingiby (talk) 11:18, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Jingby just because it wasn't a problem earlier doesn't mean its good, Wikipedia has a history with vandalism which were removed or noticed years later, same thing applies here with neutrality, not all sources support the claims and its a very divided topic i advised for a more neutral version but it seems you are unwilling to budge. Gurther (talk) 16:33, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Gurther once again.
 * There is HUGE difference between Bulgar and Bulgarian.
 * Please be kind enough to read the following if you are unsure; Bulgars and Bulgarians. Phrasing is the key. Nikolay.rusev (talk) 16:58, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I refer to Macedonian Bulgarians as Macedono-Bulgars since its easier and faster to type, hope this clears up the confusion. Gurther (talk) 17:30, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Can Note1 and Note2 be merged?
Since I am uninitiated in the topic area I do not insist on my suggestion.

Immediately after name 'Petar Poparsov' there seem to be two notes describing alternate name / spellings. Is it not better to merge them? &#32;Bookku   (talk) 04:24, 13 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Seems like a good idea for me. Gurther (talk) 05:23, 13 April 2023 (UTC)