Talk:Peyton Vincze

Recent changes
I am well aware of WP:FOOTY consensus. FC Wichita play in a senior league so the statistics are not part of a youth career. Her nationality is ambigious so, per longstanding consensus, we avoid using a definitive nationality in the opening sentence and explain in further detail later on. Also, combining her personal life with her footballing career is bizarre. Kosack (talk) 18:02, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * re:collegiate career, see, e.g., Rose Lavelle and Sam Mewis. Mightytotems (talk) 18:32, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Both of those players have overlapping senior/college careers with summer teams listed as senior career in the infobox? Kosack (talk) 18:36, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * please see below re: WPSL participation. You asked for examples about "combining foorballing career and personal life"; that's what those examples are for. Mightytotems (talk) 18:41, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * My mistake, I thought they were being used to signify something else. Kosack (talk) 19:28, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Please check your own talk page: I've responded in detail. Please cite where her nationality would be considered "ambiguous" and where this "longstanding consensus" is: what you say here directly contradicts guidelines here. Mightytotems (talk) 18:07, 14 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Players who were born in X but represent Y are commonly displayed in this way, see the likes of Ashley Williams (footballer), Daniel James (footballer) and Ethan Ampadu as obvious examples. There are numerous examples of this on discussion boards, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 105, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 123 or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 120 . Kosack (talk) 18:11, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Everything you listed here actually support my edits and not yours. It is clear that, *for footballing purposes*, Vincze is a Welsh footballer and should be indicated as such in the lede (with one compromise being "American-born Welsh footballer"). I've reverted exactly because, as you noted, this issue has been discussed numerous times. It is simply unhelpful to re-hash what has been convention now. It is clear that Vincze is a Welsh footballer; you can add "American-born" if you want. Mightytotems (talk) 18:25, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Not sure how you figure that given that all of the examples used in those discussions actually use the non-definitive format? Diego Costa, Alexander Michel Melki, Felix Michel Melki. Kosack (talk) 18:28, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * "Diego da Silva Costa... is a professional footballer who plays as a striker for... the Spain national team." "Robert Alexander Michel Melki ... the Lebanon national team." "George Felix Michel Melki ... the Lebanon national team." If you want to argue semantics and say that these sentence constructions do not clearly indicate FIFA nationality in the lede, then fine, edit it so that Vincze's also follows these examples. From my perspective, these examples you cited and the one provided in WP:FOOTY achieve the same purpose in indicating *only* FIFA nationality in the lede and not, as you repeatedly refer to as, "ambiguous nationality". Mightytotems (talk) 18:50, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The objective of the sentence structure is not to define nationality but merely state the facts. The wording of "Vincze is a Welsh footballer" implies something more than simply FIFA nationality, which is why we generally state who the player represents. I appreciate that you've adjusted the article on this matter. Kosack (talk) 19:26, 14 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Also, BRD does not state that the idea is to simply reply and revert again. Can you point me to the convention for having senior stats listed in the youth section is? Cheers. Kosack (talk) 18:17, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * As I wrote in your talk page, the issue is not whether FC Wichita is or is not in a senior league; that is also in dispute. The issue is whether, for each specific player, at which point did she participate in a WPSL team season and for what purpose. This is something unique to the American soccer pyramid. For instance, see WPSL's own explanation here. It is clear that, due to Vincze's age and high school status, her participation with FC Wichita is as a youth player and should be noted as such; but there might be some of her teammates who are playing in their collegiate offseason (there's not a real consensus on, for these players, how it should be listed) and some others who are playing as amateurs after they've finished their collegiate career (so obviously listed in the senior season). Mightytotems (talk) 18:37, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The source you cited yourself lays it out pretty clearly: "Playing for FC Wichita does not affect eligibility with the Kansas State High School Activities Association or in college because it is an amateur team and does not pay its players. It was unclear Thursday if FC Wichita players in high school could play for their high school teams in the spring season since the seasons overlap." Mightytotems (talk) 18:40, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Also, I just want to point out that this source you use for FC Wichita is clearly recycled and largely copied from the team's own press release; it therefore says nothing about Vincze's or the team's senior and/or professional status, and it may also have WP:V issues. For example, the article claims that FC Wichita is the first "non-collegiate women's outdoor soccer team" in the area; "non-collegiate" only says what the team isn't but says nothing about what it is (clearly a copied promotional language). In my opinion, this elision contributes significantly to our discussions here because it causes confusion for those not familiar with all the weird differences and oddities in the American soccer scene compared to Europe. Mightytotems (talk) 19:11, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your thorough responses on these issues. I'll readily admit that US football customs are largely alien to me so I'll defer to your judgement on the FC Wichita matters. I appreciate the rewording of the lead on the nationality issue. Kosack (talk) 19:36, 14 July 2019 (UTC)