Talk:Plano Collor

Compromise edit
My latest sets of edits are a compromise. If you have any issues, please bring it up here.--Dali-Llama 22:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Accordin to Zelia: all together with opening of the economy....

"It is also possible to see with clarity that, under very difficult conditions, we promoted the equalization of the national debt --and that, together with the commercial opening, it created the basis for the implementation of the Plano Real".
 * Plan Collor is privatization, free trade, etc....Do provide a link to prove whta you are saying.
 * Ludovicapipa yes? 16:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Absolutely: here and even Bresser's paper on it mentions it. The Plano Collor wanted to halt liquidity to stop inertial inflation, that's all. The Faucher text clearly mentions privatizations and free trade as part of another program called PND.--Dali-Llama 16:50, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

YOU LOOSE AGAIN!!!!!!!!!

 * Iam very sorry abt that -- you ARE ABSOLUTELY WRONG AGAIN!!!!!
 * http://www.brasilescola.com/historiab/fernando-collor.htm
 * Find yr self a DOCTOR!
 * Um dia depois de assumir a Presidência, Collor anunciou uma série de medidas que visavam reorganizar a economia nacional. Elaborado pela equipe da ministra Zélia Cardoso de Mello, o Plano Brasil Novo, mais conhecido como Plano Collor, determinou:


 * a extinção do cruzado novo e a volta do cruzeiro como moeda nacional;
 * o bloqueio, por dezoito meses, dos depósitos em contas correntes e cadernetas de poupança que ultrapassassem os 50 000 cruzados :novos;
 * o congelamento de preços e salários;
 * o fim de subsídios e incentivos fiscais;
 * o lançamento do Programa Nacional de Desestatização;
 * a extinção de vários órgãos do governo, entre eles: Instituto do Açúcar e do Álcool, Instituto Brasileiro do Café, Superintendência :do Desenvolvimento do Centro-Oeste, Departamento Nacional de Obras contra a Seca (DNOCS).

I:móveis, veículos e aviões do governo foram colocados à venda.

~:Os objetivos do plano eram: enxugar a máquina administrativa do Estado, acabar com a inflação e modernizar a economia. Sem dúvida, as medidas causaram grande impacto e afetaram a vida da população em geral, dos trabalhadores aos empresários. Porém, os resulta.....
 * Ludovicapipa yes? 18:03, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Request for commet

 * Plan Collor is an economic plan. The subtitle "The Plan" only mentions political issues. Ludovicapipa yes? 14:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Carefull with his request!

 * As you can see here, he agrees that Color ended hyperinflation [|here]
 * "It is correct (and indeed sourced) to say that Collor ended hyperinflation, but even then his inflation rates were no picnic and most of his reforms failed (see here)."
 * But later he deleted the word "END" (of hyperinflation). Ludovicapipa yes? 14:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

List of points of controversy
I will need you guys to make a list of the points of controversy in this page. So far I don’t really understand what points you guys disagree on and what are your different views on the subject. Making this list is actually pretty easy and helpful. Sparks1979 17:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * As you can see, under the subtitle "The Plan" he only mentions political facts (all relate dto corruption, impeachment, etc, and from MY source, SCIELO source). Plan Collor is an economic Plan, not political one. Pln collor has an extensive macroeconomic agenda (free trade, privatization, tec modernization), whihc is not published.
 * My edition:
 * Ludovicapipa yes? 17:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

POV

 * He recently deleted the word "END" (of hyperinflation). It is widely known (and even he agreed) that Collor ended hyperinflation. Ludovicapipa yes? 17:43, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Here you can see citations concerning his agreemnt on hyperinflation, later saying the contrary... Ludovicapipa yes? 17:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:KieferSkunk#Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts.23Ludovicapipa:_Lots_of_NPA_and_CIVIL_issues
 * Ludovicapipa yes? 17:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Carefull with his request!

 * As you can see here, he agrees that Color ended hyperinflation [|here]
 * "It is correct (and indeed sourced) to say that Collor ended hyperinflation, but even then his inflation rates were no picnic and most of his reforms failed (see here)."
 * But later he deleted the word "END" (of hyperinflation). Ludovicapipa yes? 14:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Kiefer, if you'd like me to reply to any of these issues here, I will. Otherwise, I'm addressing them on their respective talk pages. Thanks!--Dali-Llama 15:35, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Another link

 * "Well, we already established she didn't end hyperinflation in Fernando Collor de Mello, so we can nix that."
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Z%C3%A9lia_Cardoso_de_Mello Ludovicapipa yes? 15:15, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

List
Ok, so if I understood you correctly, there are two points of controversy in this article:

1- Ludovicapipa wants more emphasis to economical aspects of the plan.

2- Ludovicapipa understands the Collor plan ended hyperinflation, while Dali-Llama understands the Collor plan did not end hyperinflation. The sources you guys cite to defend your views are in another talk page, Collor’s.

I will take a look at the sources and will most a third opinion here afterwards. Sparks1979 19:57, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) I'm okay with that--as long as the sources are reliable and there are no WP:SYN or WP:OR issues.
 * 2) Absolutely. Fortunately, her sources are two opinion pieces (including one which doesn't even mention inflation), so since the inflation rate data is so black and white, I don't see how she's gonna win that argument.--Dali-Llama 13:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

End of hyperinflation

 * Citations:
 * 1.
 * 2.
 * My text is aimed at describing Collor´s and Plan Collor´s legacy: facts, history as clear as possible.
 * Ludovicapipa yes? 13:20, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Two opinions? What do you mean?
 * [http://clipping.planejamento.gov.br/Noticias.asp?NOTCod=345836
 * It is a point to remember: when I cited Faucher (remember? Scielo) he several times describes how the lack of political support obstructed Collor´s economic agenda(a); I also cited Bresser saying the same thing(see Collor´s talk page). This drives me to describe a situation of a first real end of hyperinf., then the return of it (although not as intense or as high), and then Plan Real which embraced his agenda and enabled its successe. That´s what Faucher, Bresser, Zelia are saying --Iam trying to describe these facts. This new source above seems to say the samen thing. Ludovicapipa yes? 13:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Quote:
 * "Menos de um ano depois, a hiperinflação estava de volta.Mas o governo Collor não foi apenas isso. Havia um lado muito positivo, que :foi a abertura comercial para o mundo e a conseqüente modernização do parque produtivo do País. Com o fim do protecionismo, os :empresários brasileiros, premidos pela concorrência das mercadorias importadas, foram obrigados a tornar mais eficientes as suas :fábricas e a oferecer produtos melhores a preços menores. O governo estimulava esse processo oferecendo crédito barato para que as :indústrias importassem máquinas mais modernas.O mundo dá voltas. Ainda no ano de 1990, fui eleito deputado federal com uma soma :considerável de votos. Fui o quarto deputado mais votado do Brasil e, o mais importante, obtive tal votação defendendo exclusivamente :a Doutrina Liberal. O presidente Collor se interessou em me conhecer, convidou-me a v..."

Ludovicapipa yes? 13:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Wait, so you're agreeing that he didn't end hyperinflation?--Dali-Llama 13:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * No, I cited Bresser and Rev Isto é saying he ended but he could keep it low --he ended but then it returned. Iam saying his legacy is that of macroeconomic agenda that ended hyperinf. but didn´t end infl. but opened the way for the end of it --this task was then accomplished by FHC...who maitained his AGENDA, ended hiper and inflation. The same for Lula. I said that millions of times. Ludovicapipa yes? 15:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Economical x political aspects
 Third opinion 

Ok, the article seems a bit messy at the moment.


 * The last two paragraphs in the lead seem somewhat redundant. A few sentences have been simply repeated.


 * Suggestion for the economic/political emphasis >> split the section into two subsection, called “Economical aspects” and “Political impact”, and make them approximately equivalent in size. Sparks1979 18:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

New

 * Ludovica, this is the same thing you've been saying for the past three weeks. Wikipedia is not a soapbox--As long as you cite facts, they'll warrant inclusion, otherwise, as Sparks has shown, the process for including opinion, between WP:RS and WP:NPOV, is incredibly stringent. An inflation rate is a fact: calling someone "brave" is an opinion. I'll write up a compromise edit tomorrow for the Zélia, Fernando Collor and Plano Collor, which I'll separate paragraph-by-paragraph for yours and Sparks' endorsement. I expect you to comment as appropriate, but remembering that until someone else comes along, if Sparks and I agree, that forms a majority consensus. Similarly, if you and Sparks agree, that will be the new consensus. Hopefully this will be the last we hear of this.--Dali-Llama 01:50, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Compromise edit is provided by the third opinion. Ludovicapipa yes? 15:17, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No it's not.--Dali-Llama 15:37, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * 1. As long as I can cite facts? All the links under analisys are what? Aren´t they facts? Brave is no opinion, it´s Bresser´s academic analisys.
 * 2.What do you mean you will write sometinhg for Sparks endorsement?
 * 3. As as now, I agree with Sparks final text, although Collor´s legacy is not fully mentioned, credited --instead, there is a "success" word credited to Itamar and FHC, which are not the theme at stake. Although they deserve, it´s due to Collor´s agenda.
 * 3. As as now, I agree with Sparks final text, although Collor´s legacy is not fully mentioned, credited --instead, there is a "success" word credited to Itamar and FHC, which are not the theme at stake. Although they deserve, it´s due to Collor´s agenda.

Ludovicapipa yes? 11:41, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * In addition to Faucher, Bresser, Zelia, there is this FGVCPDOC source to justify Collor´s lack of political support.
 * "Em maio, o governo apresentou ao Congresso uma proposta de reforma fiscal destinada a aumentar a arrecadação federal e baixar a inflação, então estabilizada em 20% ao mês. Problemas na sua base política, contudo, impediram a aprovação do projeto, apesar do pronunciamento favorável do diretor-gerente do FMI, Michel Camdessus, para quem o programa econômico do governo brasileiro não sobreviveria sem um ajuste fiscal. O aval do FMI, órgão com o qual o ministro Marcílio Marques Moreira mantinha boas relações, seria muito importante para que, em julho, o governo fechasse um acordo com os bancos internacionais em torno da redução da dívida externa e da ampliação do prazo de seu pagamento." Ludovicapipa yes? 11:50, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Please, STOP citing sources disconnected from specific pieces from the text. This doesn't help at all. KieferSkunk warned you about it--it makes no sense when you don't connect to a particular paragraph. And once again, I'll refer you to WP:NPOV to see what's opinion and what's fact.--Dali-Llama 15:37, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Iam sorry this source is directly related to political matters of Plano Collor. FGVCPDOC is FGV´s source. It´s talking abt infl. and it emphazises FAucher´s, Zelia´s and Bresser´s. Why don´t YOU offer some source? I´d like to hear Spark´s third opinion for this new source. It also should END talks concerning Collor´s end of hiperinfl. I consider a extermely important source. How does Kiefer know if he doesn´t understand port.? Ludovicapipa yes? 15:46, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ludovica, I sincerely mean it when I say that I'm progressively finding your logic difficult to follow. I've probably been doing this for too long. I'll do what I proposed above, starting with Sparks' compromise suggestions, and then we can address specific changes. It's obvious talking about the issues behind the text is not going to work.--Dali-Llama 16:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think his texts are enough to end discussion on these articles ( I ahve no plans to edit political artciles). I can never throw away the excellent job he made. I ´d stick to his final texts. Ludovicapipa yes? 16:46, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

New Version
I have to be honest in saying that I have a lot more experience with economics than I've purported to have. I didn't want it to affect the discussion, since Wikipedia does not (and should not) defer to credentials. I tried my best to argue things based off of policy to keep it NPOV and not inflame the Ludovica's personal attacks, but it became clear that opinion and POV were the only things Ludovica understood. Saying that Collor ended hyperinflation and then it came back from the dead was the last straw that broke the camel's back (also known as "a última gota d'água"). I swear I heard Mário Henrique Simonsen rolling over in his grave. After seeing Sparks' great work in Law enforcement in Brazil, a subject where he clearly knows his stuff, I felt compelled to act.

This is what I meant when I talked about an article that explains policy through facts, not use opinion for the sole purpose of apportioning credit.

The sources range from good old Bresser to the unimpeachable IPEA to the random college professor. It's important to mention that these are not being sourced for their opinion. The few instances where it was needed to make a point (IE:Why the plan failed), I used multiple sources who used quantitative data to prove their points. Anyways, let me know what you think. I'm pretty sure I covered the points of compromise, but I may have skipped one or two.--Dali-Llama 07:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yr text is weak, to sey the least. After reading this, one has added but nothing to its personal culture. It´s amazing to see my work and Spark´s thrown away. No bom português: vc parece estar falando sozinho (quem fala sozinho não é ouvido por ninguém). A lot of minor, of no importance (at all) details, are abundant on yr articles. The only valuable part is the Plan´s list of goals. Anyway, I have no further comments, I end any an all discussion of this article and all the others. Ludovicapipa yes? 11:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I think we'll let others decide.--Dali-Llama 14:29, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

In response do Ludovica's comments on Sparks' talk page:

To the extent that you (Ludovica) accuse me of ignoring Sparks' comments, I'll leave that up for Sparks to decide. As I previously stated, Sparks provided a critical read of the sources you've provided (and an excellent one at that) and the conclusions or citations you drew from them. From the twelve sources you provided, eight were considered either not reliable per WP:RS or not relevant or redundant to the point you were trying to make. In the end, Sparks provided compromise suggestions on two separate issues: hyperinflation and continuity. On hyperinflation, Sparks' suggestion seemed to be geared more towards ending debate by finding an acceptable compromise in the absence of a clear metric for hyperinflation. You said that he "ended hyperinflation" and then it came back. When I presented quantitative evidence that was not the case, you tried to defend your point by what to me seems to be a misunderstanding of the theories of fiscal and monetary policy. So what I did was greatly expand what tackling hyperinflation entails, its challenges (mostly re-monetization) and what the government's actions were. I don't think a single economist in the world will say something as singular as "Collor ended hyperinflation" when the historical quantitative evidence is so crystal-clear on the issue.

And on continuity, Sparks' compromise edit, while I agreed with it with a minor reservation, does not "fit" into the article as it stands because it was expanded to a considerably higher granularity which I (and indeed Sparks) had called for earlier. To the extent that you get down from your soapbox and cease to push what you think is the redress for a "historical injustice", and cite individual continuity events with a reliable source, we'll include it in the article as long as it complies with WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE.--Dali-Llama 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)