Talk:Politician/Archive 1

comment
Don't we all agree that the first paragraph is a little biased? MichaelShirley

Can the Dali Lama really be considered a politician? Is the pope a politician? user:J.J.

22/07/03 - I think not. I'm removing him from the list.

Pharaoh of Egypt is a politican if and only if Dalai Lama of Tibet is a politican! wshun

By the way, why don't we have a list of politicans? Isn't it because of political reason? -- Taku

More likely it is because the definition of "politican" maybe too vague. wshun

I think this list should only have one of each "kind" of politician. That is to say, one mayor, one president, one PM, one minister, etc. Just to show the diverse range of offices a politician can hold. The list in its present form is in danger of getting longer and longer, as more and more people throw their favorite historical figure in the list. user:J.J.

Numbers of people from the society of Pakistan has started to think that Pakistan became a hostage by miscreants, call girls and her brokers, plunders, feudalisms and they all had started being called politicians themselves. They all have made the criminal to whole nation of Pakistan. In Pakistan democracy only for call girls and her broker, politicians, Generals of Army, bribers who sends share to all concerned high authorities. Pakistani police and other agencies has not done except the playing role of broker they could not provide any kind of relief and justice to common real Pakistani citizens, they have only given shelters to the criminals and criminal politicians and they make naked and tortured the common citizens of Pakistan on the roads and get bribery from sex workers' area and criminals. Police and other agencies have murdered the poor people due to not availability of bribes. The police stations of Pakistan are the shelters of criminals and they're in police stations, police torturer common people for getting bribe. The embassies of international communities in Pakistan has played role of friendship only of criminal politicians call girls, miscreants, plunders, illegal profiteers of Pakistan, but they keep up crying to be friend of Pakistan. Present going circumstances proved they all are responsible of all kind crime and terrorism in Pakistan. And call girls their brokers, criminal politicians are ruling over Pakistan. It is a wonderful condition of Pakistan that Pakistani electronic and print media always give chance of expressing the passions and feelings to the call girls and their brokers, criminal politicians. Criminals, call girls and politicians all time are sighted on television channels, common citizens has not rights of expressing their basic needs of living, social and economical problems on the media. 24 July 2007

Definitions
Quote: "In Western democracies, the term [politician] is generally restricted to those officials who attain their position through election campaigns"

-Then, for whom are the term restricted in Eastern democracies?

-According to the article: "Political campaign" a campaign "is an organized effort to influence the decision making process within a group". But, in "western democracies" there are several other ways for politicians to attain theire positions. 25 April 2006

Quote 2
Following (slightly modified) quote may be added: "I have come to the conclusion that civil government politics are too serious a matter to be left to the civil government politicians. -Charles de Gaulle"

Politicians are much more than people who run campaigns
The statement, "In Western democracies, the term is generally restricted to those involved in election campaigns," is simply not true. We call our office holders politicians as well. Those running election campaigns are campaigners or campaign staff.
 * The sentence in its modified form is better: the term is generally restricted to those officials who attain their position through election campaigns, contrasting politicians with civil servants. I will remove the disputed tag. Zanaq 08:51, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

politican = professional liar
A politican is a person who constantly is lying in public speech. That is how we define them in central europe. In most countries of the world the population is seriously holding the opinion that being a politican is XOR with being a honest person. The current article paints too shiny a picture of politicans.

Also, that alaskan bitch is considered a politican even thought she got the governor's seat from her dandy daddy without any elections! So you can be a politican without elections even in the west! 195.70.32.136 12:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

-- Numbers of people from the society of Pakistan has started to think that Pakistan became a hostage by miscreants, call girls and her brokers, plunders, feudalisms and they all had started being called politicians themselves. They all have made the criminal to whole nation of Pakistan. In Pakistan democracy only for call girls and her broker, politicians, Generals of Army, bribers who sends share to all concerned high authorities. Pakistani police and other agencies has not done except the playing role of broker they could not provide any kind of relief and justice to common real Pakistani citizens, they have only given shelters to the criminals and criminal politicians and they make naked and tortured the common citizens of Pakistan on the roads and get bribery from sex workers' area and criminals. Police and other agencies have murdered the poor people due to not availability of bribes. The police stations of Pakistan are the shelters of criminals and they're in police stations, police torturer common people for getting bribe. The embassies of international communities in Pakistan has played role of friendship only of criminal politicians call girls, miscreants, plunders, illegal profiteers of Pakistan, but they keep up crying to be friend of Pakistan. Present going circumstances proved they all are responsible of all kind crime and terrorism in Pakistan. And call girls their brokers, criminal politicians are ruling over Pakistan. It is a wonderful condition of Pakistan that Pakistani electronic and print media always give chance of expressing the passions and feelings to the call girls and their brokers, criminal politicians. Criminals, call girls and politicians all time are sighted on television channels, common citizens has not rights of expressing their basic needs of living, social and economical problems on the media. 4 March 2005

The introduction
..is the most ridiculous, uncyclopedic BS I've ever seen on Wikipedia. It looks like an advocacy blogger's entry. Joffeloff 10:05, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. As that text was only a few days old, I've removed it and added a discussion of corruption further down.  It's not very good, I fear, and could use help.  --BlueMoonlet 04:24, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

What do you expect? The word "politicen" is a derivative of "poli-tics" which had been coined from two words "poli" meaning many and "tics" a blood-sucking parasite. Notice that most of the words refering to them has the letter "P" in it? MP=manshaped parasite etc.

Similarly, parliement is a derivative of two French words "parler"=to speak, "mentir"= to lie. 194.9.83.142 03:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)George Corvin. Nairobi

Definition
Std dict-defs are much broader than people running for office, and would include in the US
 * _ _ cabinet members (appointed, approved by Senate, and enumerated in statutes),
 * _ _ the President's chief of staff (an unelected government employee whose position is not specified in statutes),
 * _ _ political consultants like Karl Rove and like James Carville, at least one of whom has probably never been a Federal employee, and
 * _ _ Daniel P. O'Connell (last boss of 2nd-to-last big-city political machine) spent a couple of years as an minor elected public official, but is a notable politician only bcz of what he did in the later decades, which he spent as a county party chair but no longer a public official.

The article belongs on WP:CU until something else replaces the horrible definition. On the other hand, it is also too broad: it seems blind to the distinction that i consider obvious, and that is reflected in the description of US govt civilian jobs as "civil service positions" or "political appointments" respectively: politicians participate in making policy, in contrast to other gov't employees, who carry out policies and/or provide factual input to policy-makers. --Jerzy•t 02:03, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I would define a politician as "A person who actively uses their influence to affect social change." There are many different types of politicians, from gossips spreading thier opinion about a person in thier circle of friends to government officials desiding international policy, and they are all playing thier own form of politics. NobodyOfNaught 22:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Possible Definition
Here are some dictionary definitions I've pulled - I'm not sure:

From WordWeb: 1)A leader engaged in civil administration 2)A person active in party politics 3)A schemer who tries to gain advantage in an organization in sly or underhanded ways

From webster.com: 1 : a person experienced in the art or science of government; especially : one actively engaged in conducting the business of a government 2 a : a person engaged in party politics as a profession b : a person primarily interested in political office for selfish or other narrow usually short-sighted reasons

From thefreedictionary.com: 1.a. One who is actively involved in politics, especially party politics. b. One who holds or seeks a political office. 2. One who seeks personal or partisan gain, often by scheming and maneuvering: "Mothers may still want their favorite sons to grow up to be President, but . . . they do not want them to become politicians in the process" John F. Kennedy. 3. One who is skilled or experienced in the science or administration of government.

Here's a draft of a proposed revison for the definition of, 'politician:'

A politician is an individual who publically and actively participates in influencing the way a society is governed. This includes people who hold decision making positions in government, and people who seek those positions, whether by means of election, coup d'etat, appointment, conquest, right of inheritance (see also: divine right), etc. A politician can also include a person who is active in party politics, or a person who has the power to influence public opinion. Members of the government who serve purely functional roles, or ordinary citizens cannot properly be called politicians; however, as the term 'politics,' in the broadest sense, can be applied to any group decision making situation, a person in that group who acts to influence that decision can be termed a politician within that group. For example, a worker participating in office politics is a politican, but only so far as the operations of his or her workplace are concerned. If I don't get any objections or comments, I'll put it up in a day or so. (Elustran 02:42, 21 May 2006 (UTC))

Cleanup??
I think the article needs to go to a mentor. Any cleanup attempt is only going to reverted. Thats my two cents.Eagle talk 03:35, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The best I can do is try to find some sources for this article.Eagle talk 03:36, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Dictionarys

 * The American Heritage Dictionary
 * TheFreeDictionary
 * Webster's Online Dictionary with Multilingual Thesaurus Translation
 * Merriam-Webster Online
 * HyperDictionary
 * Dictionary.com--Note: I have already mentioned the first entry here(was in American Heritage Dictionary) but the second is new.
 * Cambridge Dictionaries Online
 * AskOxford

Dictionaries done!Eagle talk 04:18, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Anything else you want me to research? or look up? If so, please contact me on my talk page.Eagle talk 04:18, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Source
- Here's a definition of politics from an an American Government textbook of mine: "If government is the instrument for forging one interest out of many in order to legislate and to speak fro the country as a whole in matters of national interest, then politics is a means through which individual and group interests compete to shape government's impact on society's problems and goals. In political science, the perm politics encompasses a much wider spectrum than actions directed toward government policy; it applies to all power relationships and to attempts to influence the distribution of resources in the private sphere as well as the public." I'm not sure if I need to cite that in this talk page, but it comes from Understanding American Government, 8th ed. I'm fairly new to writing for Wikipedia, so I'm not entirely sure how to go about referencing a source, so I'll have to ask: is it appropriate to cite a definition of politics within a definition of politician, with the provision that, as numerous to-be-cited dictionaries have said, a politician is someone engaged in politics?(Elustran 18:52, 21 May 2006 (UTC))

Cleanup
Shorter intro; addition of braoder definition of ~ ; addition of anti-definition; next could be: addition of bullets in criticisms; etc.. The contents seems a bit biased but still in the limits of good faith. Dilane 02:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC) Numbers of people from the society of Pakistan has started to think that Pakistan became a hostage by miscreants, call girls and her brokers, plunders, feudalisms and they all had started being called politicians themselves. They all have made the criminal to whole nation of Pakistan. In Pakistan democracy only for call girls and her broker, politicians, Generals of Army, bribers who sends share to all concerned high authorities. Pakistani police and other agencies has not done except the playing role of broker they could not provide any kind of relief and justice to common real Pakistani citizens, they have only given shelters to the criminals and criminal politicians and they make naked and tortured the common citizens of Pakistan on the roads and get bribery from sex workers' area and criminals. Police and other agencies have murdered the poor people due to not availability of bribes. The police stations of Pakistan are the shelters of criminals and they're in police stations, police torturer common people for getting bribe. The embassies of international communities in Pakistan has played role of friendship only of criminal politicians call girls, miscreants, plunders, illegal profiteers of Pakistan, but they keep up crying to be friend of Pakistan. Present going circumstances proved they all are responsible of all kind crime and terrorism in Pakistan. And call girls their brokers, criminal politicians are ruling over Pakistan. It is a wonderful condition of Pakistan that Pakistani electronic and print media always give chance of expressing the passions and feelings to the call girls and their brokers, criminal politicians. Criminals, call girls and politicians all time are sighted on television channels, common citizens has not rights of expressing their basic needs of living, social and economical problems on the media. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.71.81.149 (talk) 17:21, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Nice Cleanup
Bulleting that list handily clarified things. When I touched this page up a while ago, I wasn't sure what to do about the criticism section - I toned down its biased nature a little bit, and tried to throw in a bit of rebuttal but I was still somewhat dissatisfied. Some of this may be better merged with the page on political criticism, leaving behind some simple, relevant notes in this section on politicians. (Elustran 06:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC))
 * Looks clean enough to me, removing template from the article. --HailFire 09:19, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, it could use some work. Posting  at the top of this page. --HailFire 09:36, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * and here
 * second thoughts, restoring --HailFire 12:26, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * made a few changes to section headers --HailFire 12:38, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreement with content
This is an article that could still use some additional sources or attention from an expert. I believe the definition of Politician presented here is accurate, but I wonder if political science professors and such would agree with me. In fact, I wonder how much of a general consensus there even is on what separates politicians from other folk. (Elustran 02:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC))

Suggestion
The article is pretty ugly. I suggest it be entirely rewritten. Rintrah 12:26, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Any specific suggestions? Elustran 03:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Without saying what should replace the article, I cannot be more specific. I can make some specific criticisms, though.


 * First paragraph has diffuse language which resembles business language. It should be rewritten.


 * The Definitions section is silly, particularly because the two questions are inappropriate in an encyclopedic context. The bullet points underneath them do not define politicians well.


 * The first sentence of Criticisms is weaselish. The rest of the paragraph describes general opinions and is not well written. Altogether, the section is poorly structured and not linked to any respected sources.


 * This is why I suggest the article should be written anew. Rintrah 14:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I was reasonably happy with the introductory paragraph - can you elaborate on what you mean by 'diffuse language?' The difficulty with both the introductory paragraph and the bullet-list stems from the nuance of the definition of politician: someone who is acting as a member of a governing body, someone who has gained power by convincing a body of people (regardless of size) to follow him, or, more colloquially, someone who acts in a socially manipulative manner.  I am more concerned with providing a definition that is clear, neutral, comprehensive, and concise, (the essence of what an encyclopedia is) than providing one that has an encyclopedic air.  I thought the list clarified what was there before, but I can see how it is a bit hodge-podge.  The whole section on criticism of politicians could probably be mostly done away with, leaving a 'see also' to the article on political corruption, which is much better written. Elustran 18:45, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I strongly agree that the "Criticism" section should go. It has multiple problems:


 * It is based on opinion and cites insufficient references
 * It relates only tangentially to politicians; it is a general topic of political science, nothing specific to the persons of politicians
 * As Rintrah mentioned, it is not well-written, but that in itself is not reason for it to be jettisoned, just cleaned up.


 * I do like the bullet lists, but I am not an expert in this field. I felt that I had learned from the lists what was meant by the word "politician", but I don't know whether all that I learned was accurate.  The Merriam-Webster reference did help, but it seems like the textbook reference should cite page numbers, even though, admittedly, I am not about to go find the textbook and check.


 * Finally, is this article even appropriate to Wikipedia, or does it belong in Wiktionary? It seems like all we are really trying to do is define the word.  (Besides the criticism, which I don't think belongs in this article at all.)
 * Ikrieg (talk) 04:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

politics dont make that much money in a year and have the fear that they wont get re-elcted

Picture of Bill Clinton
Any particular reason the picture of Bill Clinton was taken down? I understand that some may interpret it as bias, but there is a widely held opinion from all sides of the political spectrum that Bill Clinton is an excellent politician. Many prominent Republicans and Democrats have praised Clinton for his skillful use of rhetoric, and comedians have frequently noted and parodied it. The picture was not meant to either support or demean President Clinton. To look at public relations in a partisan matter is bringing politics into what is essentially a non-political property; political rhetoric is a skill like playing baseball or medical proficiency. I think George W. Bush was also an excellent politician on the campaign trail, that's why he won.This.machinery (talk) 04:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I think there are still people that do not like Clinton particularly; anyway, a picture on the Politician page of Wikipedia should be someone that represents the (best) ideal of politician, say Nelson Mandela, Abraham Lincoln or Gandhi; using Clinton is both recentism and US-centric. Personally I would try the last one: he is already dead, has had an enduring influence on modern politics worldwide, and I never met anyone having a low consideration of him. Orzetto (talk) 09:54, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I beg to differ: people do not primarily think of Gandhi as a politician, whether as Clinton clearly is. Most politicians are not heroes universally praised: Clinton is more representative. I don't think we should be idolising politicians: we should be representative and NPOV.
 * I also disagree with the charge of US-centricism. I'm not from the US, and I think he's almost the archetypal politician. Any picture of a single politician is bound to come from a country: Gandhi is as India-centric as Clinton is guilty of the equivalent sin. Larklight (talk) 20:32, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll disagree as well - if a picture is required here, a person who has been titled, 'Mahatma' does not strike me as the best representative of a politician. Regardless of the charge of US-centrism, I think an older, widely recognized, historically important, and perhaps slightly controversial politician may be a better choice, such as Winston Churchill or Thomas Jefferson. In fact, we should either have a few different images, maybe collaged together, or none at all, considering that we're talking about politicians in general, and, as a rule, no single person can necessarily be representative of all politicians. (Elustran (talk) 14:59, 19 November 2008 (UTC))

There is a mistake
It is called Pubic Theory not Public Theory. Public theory is referring to an area other than politics. That is why I am editing the article to be Pubic Theory.

Source: www.nsm88.org/publicther Any questions: dsjfhsu043@aol.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.57.196.146 (talk) 23:51, 14 December 2008 (UTC) jhnc0c vsg [sorske]wok l[espdok] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.123.224.174 (talk) 01:57, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Quote
A quote from Bernard Moitessier may be implemented ?: "I have no desire to return to Europe with all its false gods. They eat your liver out and suck your marrow and brutalize you.

Reference: http://www.bluemoment.com/moitessier.html

Also, I find it out that it is nowhere mentioned that they are can be blamed for not asissting people in distress or unvolintary murder as

the climate change victims are estimated at millions in the near future, according to Christian Aid http://www.christian-aid.org.uk/indepth/605caweek/index.htm

150000 people are killed already by climate change http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2003/12/61562 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.182.167.19 (talk) 16:02, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was not moved. Jafeluv (talk) 21:55, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Politician → Civil government politician — This article is clearly about civil government politicians, and not politicians in general. See Politics. GrooveDog (talk) 21:46, 2 August 2009 (UTC) This request was originally posted by User:91.176.13.181. It has been reformatted.
 * Parliamentary system → Civil government parliamentary political system
 * Political system → Civil government political system
 * List of political scientists → Civil government political scientists
 * Presidential system → Civil government presidential political system
 * Political party → Civil government political party.


 * Oppose All of those terms are used almost exclusively for government. So I guess WP:COMMONNAME applies here.  TJ   Spyke   22:07, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose per WP:UCN and the proposed titles appear to be original research. —   AjaxSmack   22:33, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose per the above editors, and WP:UCN. YeshuaD avid   •  Talk  • 00:20, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose OR C mon (talk) 11:11, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose It may also be some ill-expressed POV about ecclesiastical politicians. I see no reason to complicate our article titles to encompass it, however. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:33, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Aldough the request was denied, a new name should nonetheless be found to distinct the articles from articles about other types of politicians. Any suggestions are welcome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.182.191.64 (talk) 10:12, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Public Choice Theory
I don't believe this section belongs in the article. It's large size and detailed explanation implies that Public Choice Theory is somehow an important part of the definition of a politician, when, in fact, it's just one tool used by one group of academics for analyzing political actors. I'd like to hear other opinions, but if I don't hear anything, I'll pull this part out (and try to add a sentence in somewhere else so that the link is preserved). Qwyrxian (talk) 23:39, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

The "not considered a politician"
This section, I think, is much more a reflection of what people would like to be true, and not what is generally acknowledged to be true. Generals, sheriffs, judges, and community organizers are all very political figures and behave accordingly, especially in countries where the tradition of separation of powers is weak. I think it should be excised. Ray Talk 03:21, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I think your statement itself clarifies the distinction: they are "political figures," in that they have political influence, but so are many corporations, wealthy people, some celebrities, etc. The point here is to distinguish those whose official position is as poltician, and those who are able to wield political power.  However, I could imagine others disagreeing.... Qwyrxian (talk) 04:05, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think there is such a thing as an "official" position as politician. The term is used, somewhat derogatorily, towards anybody who participates regularly in politics. Ray  Talk 17:10, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Archiving
I'm setting up auto-archiving on this talk page, set to archive threads after 90 days (I'll add some dates on the first few to make this happen). If anyone objects, just remove the archiving or post here and I'll do it. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:26, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Pictures
Wow, this article is a bit of a mess. I can't do anything about the citations, but I do recommend that it gets some pictures. I suggest Lula da Silva of Brazil, one of the most popular politicians on Earth, at least according to Barack Obama; and Hitler , generally accepted to be one of the least popular. (The links are internal, I just couldn't find a way to link to them without awkwardness) Sheavsey33 (talk) 05:22, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Criticism
Is anyone going to be bitter if I remove the entire criticism section? The whole thing is unsourced, in some cases with cite needed tags going back to 2008. Yes, everyone knows politicians are criticized. But as the article stands right now, the criticism listed is arbitrary (meaning that what specifically is criticize seems to be chosen at whim), unverified, and in some cases is probably original research. As such, I think we are far better off removing the section until such time as sourced information can be put into its place. Thoughts, anyone? Qwyrxian (talk) 06:13, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Did Professor Paul Finn (a Cambridge Professor) ever play hurling? I would be astonished to find that he did, which would seem to suggest that the Paul Finn linked to in that section is in fact a different person. 109.255.108.147 (talk) 17:36, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Thanks for noticing. --Old Moonraker (talk) 20:58, 26 May 2011 (UTC)