Talk:Portuguese language/Archive 2

Orthographic Agreement
The orthographic agreement was not an attempt. It is an international agreement, it take its time, like most international agreements! (the euro was to enter into circulation in the eighties or 1997, but it only came to exist in 1999, and in 2002 - physically) The last review of the agreement was in 2003! Brazil pressed the African countries in April 2003 to retify the agreement. The Africans didnt accept because the agreement didnt accepted Mozambican and Angolan lexicon, and they say that Portugal was more interrested to accept Brazilian conditions than theirs (unofficially Africans say: "because they are both white!"). Plus... Brazil lexicon will only change less than 0,4% and the Portuguese and African will change, more or less, 2,5%. Brazil gave the idea to create the "Instituto Internacional de Língua Portuguesa" (international institute of Portuguese language) that has its headquarters in Cape Verde, at middle distance from Portugal and Brazil. The agreement interrest is due that international companies are making two versions of documents and software for the language and the language is undervalueted internationally. And this is the first agreement that has 7 countries ratifying (except for East Timor, not independent at the time, Galicia is an observer). The past ones, only got two! It is not the work of Linguistic Puritans. It has more to do with economy, culture and globalization.Pedro 14:57, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

All that may be true, but the agreement was made without general consultation in Brazil, and it is already considered dead letter here. The person charged with negotiating, Antônio Houaiss, was respected as a lexicographer, but known for having no feeling for expression and to be a Purist, not Puritan. The reform is considered to gain no benefits for Brazil, to have a huge cost, a huge potential to confusion, and even to introduce inconsistencies -- we are quite proud about the regularity of our ortography.

In Brazil you have to take in account the huge distance between government and people.

So I would ask you to reintroduce my text.

Also, the idea that Brazilians speak a dialect of Portugal is even considered funny here. We consider to have an accent, to have forgotten some grammar and to have some vocabulary differences, but that's all. Before TV we did have dialects, and perhaps still have, but they are quit more different from mainstream Brazilian Portuguese than Brazilian Portuguese is from European one.

How can it be a "dead letter" (letra morta) if Brazil approved? It is already on the Brazilian law, waiting that Angola, Mozambique, Guinea Bissau and São Tomé approves. It is waiting like Portugal and Cape Verde are. Cape Verde approved very recently. Brazilian Portuguese is the carioca dialect (Rio de Janeiro) what was decided to Brazil in early 20th century, even if the dialect of São Paulo is also popular. That's why it seems different to you. That also happens in Portugal, but due to information anyone has that kind of opinion. When I was a kid, I normally wrote Church as “igreija”, it was difficult to other and me from the north of Portugal to write “igreja”. We pronounce the “ê” as “ei”, but the pronounciation of the ê differs a lot in here, Write about your dialect (or “sotaque” – accent - has you prefeer) in Portuguese dialects. But we don’t understand that what we speak is different of what we write. There are big differences, why we write an “o” in the end of a word, when we all pronounce as “u”? Antônio Houaiss is one of the best Brazilian lexicographers. He made to put in a dictionary every lexicon that he found in Portugal, Brazil and Africa. It was a best seller, in here [Portugal]. No one in Brazil makes any idea of an agreement. And its cost, can’t be high cause what will change to Brazil will be accent marks, that’s why I don’t understand your point. As far as I know there was any protest against the agreement in Brazil, maybe some isolationist and nationalist Brazilians do it on the Internet, but they don’t represent anyone except themselves. The problem that you pointed there is for the African countries, not Brazil. I think you have your POV, but Brazilian authorities contradict what you said. And its true that the most difference in dialects in Brazil is between rich and poor. The rich people socialet (dialect) of Brazil, especially in writing is very hard to see a difference towards the Portuguese of Portugal, I only notice when they write "ação" instead of "acção", etc. And in the speech, that also happens, but we can easily tell. If you know European Portuguese, who know that we also don’t pronounce the first "c". That's a deaf letter. When someone in Brazil razes that they use "a gente" instead of "nós" (what occurs in vernacular Portuguese of Brazil) to be a difference towards Portugal, they forget that that “mistake” also happens in Portugal. In reality, they don’t forget, they just open a Portuguese website, or something and compare. They don’t know, I saw a Brazilian linguist work about differences between the two variety, but they said that didn’t went to Portugal to study the Portuguese dialects (???!!!).

Although I normally say "Eu te amo" I dont write it that way, I write "Eu amo-te". Most of the time "te" floats to the left of the verb when a negation occurs (obligatory). Most of the supposed difference is artificial, raised by People that never eared other dialects. And Brazilian Portuguese is only considered a variety because of the writing form. A study by an American that was curious about what is said on the net went to Brazil to study the language. He concluded that Brazilian Portuguese differs less towards European Portuguese than American English towards the British. If we don’t protect a language, there would be no use for schools and we would talk like monkeys. A language is a living being. We in Portugal have a better view of the various Portuguese dialects. Because of it’s a small country, we easily eard other (Portugal) dialects and because of inmigration we eard the other dialects from all the former colonies, we have Brazilian TV Channels and we have a Channel for the African countries, that includes Angolan shows, etc. There is a very big Brazilian community in Portugal, and most are from Minas Gerais, Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo. Brazilians in here never raise that linguistic “problem”. Even Brazilian lexicon is not a difficulty, nether the Portuguese for Brazilians. I think the same should happen in Brazil, to stop thinking non-sences. Variety exists, because it is a living language. And, there’s no problem about that, and this is not the first ortographic agreement between the two countries.

We also in Portugal dont undestand that we dont speak dialects but "accents". Pedro 19:34, 17 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Pedro, I am Brazilian and I can say that the last orthographic agreement was largely ignored by the people. Perhaps my view is skewed (I am 53, already into the "who cares" age), perhaps this is a consequence of the deterioration of public schooling in Brazil over the last 20-30 years (many university-level students still make ss/ç spelling errors), perhaps (as the other person above said) the problem is political (Houaiss vs. Aurélio Buarque, or whatever). In any case most people here (even college professors) have hardly heard of the latest reform, and would be hard pressed if you asked them what it was about. Most people here still use the "trema", for instance. (BTW, this morning I spotted an "ambigüa" in the Folha de São Paulo, one of the leading newspapers).


 * And frankly, the latest reform was just stupid: for the cost of a full-scale reform, we got practically zero benefits. In fact, the abolition of the trema was a step backwards -- it only made the spelling even less phonetic thanit was.


 * I can appreciate the effort of the international committees in trying to keep the spelling unified in spite of the major differences in pronunciation between the various "dialects". However, you must realize that this battle will eventually be lost.  As you must know, European portuguese has largely lost the pre-tonic vowels, so that even syllable counts are now different from those of Camões time.  On the other hand. Brazilian portuguese is evolving in a different way, by truncating final sounds. Thus what is written "cantar" is pronounced something like "cntaire" in one dialect and "cantá" in the other).  I see two ways out: either we abandon any pretense of phoneticism and freeze the present spelling as a "logographic" ortography (as English did), or we do a real spelling reform and accept two or more spelling standards.


 * All the best, Jorge Stolfi 17:18, 18 May 2004 (UTC)


 * A few words in Portuguese: «Olá Jorge!! Gostei do que escreveu no artigo, ficou bem melhor do que estava antes, agora temos um artigo mais suave e coerente.» Different pronunciation exists since always, Portuguese is not different. I agree a lot with you. You seem very wise. But the agreement is not yet in force, at least in here, and by the rules, anywhere. We still write "acção" and "actor". It is also ignored. People used to talk a lot in the beginning of the 1990s. But because of the long time... most forgot. I forgot! But I think that is good, difficult and necessary for the language to be better accepted internationally. It will make to us in Portugal, a difference, but we are used to it now. Lots of things changed in Portugal in the last decades, almost everything, the last one was the Euro, for instance. Everyone was afraid of it, because the coins are very small, and some values are very high, especially in banknotes. but today, 2 years after, anyone thinks in that. Now, we are a completly different country. For the language, Portuguese has another problem, it is used by countries that are very distant from each other. Possibly because, the language give a sence of unity, where it is spoken, especially in Angola. By two motives, the different tribes try to be the best, and if some tribe gains status, they get crazzy, so Portuguese as official, is very important to that country, that has a side problem, Angolan parents do not teach their children their native language, because they want to their children to be the best when comparing to other tribe's children. The USA even wanted for the country to be splitted when it was at war. They got really mad with that. But that creates a problem, there is no close interaction between two Port. speaking countries -- They don't share any border. What happens with the other most spoken languages. Thus, people get a sence of isolation, felling different and alone. «Foi bom falar consigo!» -Pedro 19:29, 18 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Just a fresh information from Fortaleza, Brazil where the Education Ministers of CPLP are meeting: the ortographic agreement will be approved by East Timor and it will be changed, so that Portugal, Brazil, Cape Verde and East Timor will start to use it very soon. This comes after appels from East Timor. The African countries will also probably accept (not clear) this modification even if it will not be in law (Portuguese is a language ruled by Law). The entrance into practice of the Agreement will be discussed in the summit of São Tomé and Príncipe, during this Summer.

Article split
Maybe its time to split these page, its above 40 kbs. I suggest a series of articles. What do you say (Pedro??) MvHG 15:06, 17 May 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm already doing it. Using "main article". As being a "series" its a bit strange, because an Encliclopedia doesnt work like that. maybe we can use it like we use "main article". I think we should base the article on the English language article. What i'm trying to do.Pedro 19:33, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

Unclear sentences in Africa section
I think that I can support Portuguese for featured article status, though it still needs a little grammatical work, and I've already made some minor edits. However tow sentences seem rather unclear to me.
 * 1. There is some decreoulization due to education and Portugal's national TV channels are a Capeverdian fever, but it is believe that the Creoles will be maintained.
 * What is Capeverdian fever, is that some phrase elaborating on how popular Portugal's TV is. I understand some the influece from Portugal has an effect on the creoles, and that it is generally thoug the creoles will surrvive.
 * Are you trying to say this:
 * There is some decreoulization due to education and the "Capeverdian fever", the poularity of Portugal's national TV channels. However, it is believe that the Creoles will be maintained despite those influences.
 * Yes, that's correct! Portuguese national channels are watched in Cape verde, at first with the objection of the government due to law, but now accepted because many municipalities offer the Portuguese national channels (RTP1, 2, SIC, TVI) + the cable sport channel (SPORTV). -Pedro 22:35, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
 * The fever is buying means to get access to the Portuguese Channels and more and more municipalities are getting that means to gain votes. It is believed that the creoles will be maintained because their are linked to culture. Their are all bilingual, Portuguese reinfluenced it a bit.--Pedro 00:53, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
 * 2.The younger Portuguese socialet is very similar to Angola's Portuguese dialect, due to that influence.'
 * I really have no idea what you are tyring to say, unless a socialet is some linguistic terminology I'm not familiar with. The only other thing I could think of was that you we're trying to say this:
 * The young Portuguese socialite is very familar with Angola's Portuguese dialect....?
 * The younger Portuguese population uses lexicon (many words) of Angolan Portuguese. Thx for the corrections. -Pedro 22:35, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Your welcome! Perhaps you could help me out by helping me translate the English verison of Marshall, Texas and expand the Portuguese version of that article.
 * -JCarriker 01:12, May 24, 2004 (UTC)
 * P.S. You may want to consider archiving some of this ralk page. you can do it by cuting some of the text from this page and pasting it at Talk:Portuguese language/archive1 and placing a link to the archive at the top of this page.

- Please help me to understand what you meant by these phrases. -JCarriker 20:28, May 23, 2004 (UTC)
 * I Agree.-Pedro 14:25, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

Other
"cerrar" is correct portuguese. look up in your dictionary. Haven't you ever heard anything like "os jogadores tentam cerrar mais a barreira"? granted, encerrar is more commun, but cerrar is closer to the given spanish word, that's why I thought it was more appropriate. --Cataphract 23:05, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * you are correct, but i've never heard anyone saying "cerrar janela". for me, it doenst make sence, while "encerrar janela" makes and, rarely, is used. cerrar is used, as you said, to the process of joining, by both sides, we say "cerrar os olhos" ('almost-closing' the eyes) (is not closing, but almost closed) while "encerrar os olhos" (closing the eyes). What do you think? :\ I really dont know. --Pedro01:02, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Arigato
'Also, many words of Portuguese origin entered the lexicons of many other languages such as "arigatô" to mean "thank you" in Japanese (from "obrigado")'

I believe it has been proven that arigato gozaimasu (thank you) was in use in Japan long before contact with the Portuguese. However, Japanese does have words of Portuguese origin ... I do not know Portuguese so I cannot verify the accuracy of the original words. In Japanese they are: kappa (raincoat), karuta (playing cards), tabako (cigarettes/tobacco), pan (bread), and botan (button) to name a few. CES 00:22, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * that is not what I came to know in a Investigation in Japan some years ago, that clearly stated that the japanese did not had a word for "thank you", so they used the Portuguese. Different cultures does not allways have a word for a given concept. We are talking about a contact made since 1543 and Portugal made great influence in the country, visible even today in a village in South Japan. There is also Bidoro (from Vidro - glass), saya (from saia - skirt) and some more.

for information:
 * Japanese - Portuguese
 * kappa - Capa
 * karuta - Cartas
 * tabako - tabaco
 * pan - pão
 * botan - botão

"ão" in portuguese is a nazalized sound, should not be read as "ao" but as "ang". If not... the word is very similar to the Portuguese, a coincidence? What I know it came via Portuguese, if you say it aint then you may have info on that. --Pedro 02:02, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Arigato/Obrigado appears to just be a coincidence

I am not a linguist, but looking around on the internet at both Japanese and English language sites (sorry I don't read Portuguese or I'd check them too!) it appears that there is a concensus among linguistics experts that the relationship between arigato and obrigado is nothing more than a curious coincidence.

The word appears in works such as the Manyoshu (8th c.), Tale of Genji (11 c.), and Tale of the Heike (13-14 c.?) and the original meanings include "unlikely to be" "rare" "welcome".

Interestingly enough, there are several (Japanese) amateur sites that claim obrigado is from Japanese, not the other way around! This appears to be false as well, as it appears obrigado is from the Latin obligare.

Some references:

Linguist List Brazzil.com Forum &#35486;&#28304;&#30001;&#26469;&#36766;&#20856;(sorry Japanese only!)

CES 00:26, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The connection between arigato and obrigado seems tenuous at best so I edited the article by substituting arigato/obrigado with pan/pão, whose etymology is confirmed as Portuguese in origin.

CES 00:12, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * the second source of yours is unreliable, completly. that's a funny website (especially its forum in Portuguese), but dont use it for learning Portuguese from elsewhere or info about the language. I've read the first, I dont know if that is reliable (I dont go for info on Portuguese on english language, I've seen terrible things in the net in English for Portuguese). You've done the best. -Pedro 10:13, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes "obrigado" is an obligation, because you are oblied to respect the other when he helps you. We also have "agradecido" (but noone uses). I want more info on that, I'm not convinced yet. When doubt occurs the better is to use another example. Are you japanese? It also seens a coincidence in Japanese words. I'll try to find documents from that time, from the Portuguese saylors in Japan. --Pedro 10:20, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I realize that second site is of questionable reliability ... my aim was to show a variety of sources rather than provide a definitive answer. But my main point is that linguistics specialists in both English and Japanese (and remember that the Portuguese word is not in question here, the Japanese one is) rule out a link between the two. Do you have any sources that show a connection? The Portuguese and Japanese have had a long history together ... even if "arigato" did not come from "obrigado" perhaps there were some influences in its usage? In one of the Japanese sites I read, it mentioned that the use of "arigato" spread in part through Buddhist teachings ... perhaps Catholics influenced this religious usage? It's probably just a coincidence, but an interesting one. Does anyone else have any insights on this? CES 23:58, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

«Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2003 12:50 am   Post subject: Re: portuguese words in japanese
 * but in that second souce a guy from Portugal has the same opinion than me, he has my name, but he's not me.

Don't forget the obvious 'Arigatô' for 'Obrigado'» posted by Pedro Ceci (thats not me believe me)

The problem with Brazzil.com is a forum of love and hate between Portuguese people and Brazilians. And they are now in the time of "I love you" some months ago they were into "I hate you". I just go there to see and I post one/twice has a guest. Try two find more credible sources. I heard that in a investigation made in japan, but because it was donne by a TV station, them we also have a doubt. Pedro 01:14, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

SAMPA/IPA
Many SAMPA sounds that was in the article since yesterday were wrong (especially vowels). I'll also include IPA (using its images, that are prettier and everyone supports). I used IPA in preference to SAMPA. What do you think? .-Pedro 11:24, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Now the article is fine! It's a pitty that in the article about sampa it doesnt have sound files.-Pedro 16:15, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * I was the one who made the change to SAMPA yesterday. Frankly I wasn't quite sure on many of the sounds myself, having to guess from how they were used in English. Poccil 16:59, Jun 18, 2004 (UTC)
 * Yeah. But thanks to you now the article is better, Previously was with English language examples to help people learn it simply.
 * Thought I had a lot of work. But it was not difficult cause I had two sources for making it (not very good) and I used what I know about both Standard Portuguese (and the language it self), I hear a lot both. I'll consult a work that was done in Rio with Lisbon about the Portuguese varieties, and see if everything is correct in the article. I think it is. -Pedro 18:33, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)