Talk:Portuguese language/Archive 3

IPA examples
I've added IPA of the Lusiads: there are two observations to be made Just to remember that the IPA "j" (semi-vowel) is not the Portuguese "j" (consonant).
 * I've made the translation myself, the problem is that peotry doesnt always follow correct grammar. Plz see if something is incorrect, but pay attention that it is poetry. And what may see incorrect was intentional. Maybe an existant translation would be better...
 * There maybe some minor problems in IPA. Mostly in some hiatus, but it is poetry so no real problem in here.

BTW I think the Brazilian pronunciation is still a mess: At first the article had Rio de Janeiro Portuguese, but someone decided to changed to São Paulo. But half of the pronunciation is still from Rio: /poɾtu'gejs/ /õdʒi fikɐ u bɐ̃'j̃ejɾu/ /falɐ ĩ'glejs/ what the most neutral in that city: inglêis or inglês? And the pronunciation of the "nh"? -Pedro

POV check
POV check for languages examples(largely disputed, non-native edit), and sounds (mostly the display of table; excessive text and some innacuracies). discussion is on Portuguese vs. French section bellow. I cant do much cause he will probably revert. -Pedro 11:55, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Brazilian vowels
About brazilian phonetics: the vowels before a nasal consonant have a complicated status. The grave a is not [&#592;] e muito menos [&#592;&#771;] (raios, what does it mean?). The brazilian sound is surely [&#652;]. And so, [o] is the grave o and [e] is the grave e.

In the south of Brazil and in Paraiba, all the vowels before a vowel are grave. [k&#652;na], [k&#652;ma], [fomi], [&#640;or&#652;&#618;ma], [komi], [b&#652;n&#652;na], [aroma], [tema], [k&#652;nela], [p&#652;niku]...

In other parts of brazil, although, there some exceptions in these rules. [k&#652;na], [k&#652;ma], [f&#596;mi], [&#640;ora&#618;ma] (specially in the northern Brazil), [k&#596;mi], [ban&#652;na], [aroma], [tema], [k&#652;nela]/[kanela], [p&#652;niku].

Better note that panics is pânico in Brazil and pánico in Portugal and ex-colonies.

Other things:
 * We have not the Schwa sound ([&#601;]).
 * The ã is actually [ã].
 * /j/ is /&#618;/, not other thing.
 * In São Paulo (city) and surrounding areas, the sound /e&#771;/ is uttered as /e&#771;&#618;&#771;/ (I am one of those people)
 * &#616; is really unutterable by brazilians.
 * r: there is some problem in it.
 * soft post-vowel r: we do speak [&#638;]. In Rio, [h] [&#640;]. In the end of verbs, it can be deleted. (Cantar -> Cantá)
 * soft pre-vowel r: we generally speak [&#638;]
 * hard r: in the beginning of a word, [h] or [&#640;]. In the middle, just [&#640;]. Sometimes, [x], but very, very rarely.
 * nh: good note. Better mantain.

I can write it in the article latter. More discussion?

José San Martin 00:38, May 3, 2005 (UTC)


 * [&#592;&#771;] is just "an" has in has in 'anda, can'ta. The ã, I believe, is from this region (north of Portugal) and it is very different (sonorous) from the Brazilian and the standard european port (which for me are much alike, or identical, but there are dialects that it isnt). The I is another problem. is it really the Bras. standard? You're the second to say that, but others don't. Maybe because these sounds are similar. Because when I ear it doesnt seem to me. In EP is really \j\, the academy says so. But I can be hearing wrongly.
 * "Pánico" is the pronunciation on Northern Portugal, "Pânico" is the in the south and other places. I pronunce pánico (i'm from the north), but we all (north/south) write "pânico". Standard Portuguese has no changes in the â with Brazil. It has on ô and ê in these examples: quilômetro (Brazil) ->quilómetro; amazônia ->amazónia I'm not remembering one for ê.... :| but it exists.
 * Don't confuse northern Portugal phonology with the standard one. Yes, write.
 * Aproveita e arranja a tabela que tá toda torta. :| -Pedro 01:22, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I am not going to revert. I'm not sure what your complaints about the sound table are, exactly. i hardly think calling it "toda torta" is reasonable. what you had before was highly Portugal-specific. as you see by Sanmartin's comments, there is not one single "standard" in Brazil, as you might say about Lisbon in Portugal. perhaps the best you could say is that there are two or three major regional standards, represented by younger speakers of Rio, Sao Paulo, maybe Salvador.

Sanmartin, are you sure about [&#640;]? This is a *voiced* uvular *trill*. i have never heard this sound in brazil. you may be confusing this symbol with [&#967;] -- unvoiced uvular fricative.

nb &#592; and &#652; are very similar in sound. the choice of one over the other may be largely tradition. Benwing 00:56, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I know that, but there are choosen dialects, you can see that in the Brazilian Academy of Letters, even their website has info on that issue. In fact, the new ortographic agreement does not estipulate a standard pronunciation in Brazil. In Portugal there are also two main dialects. The problem of the R remains, the [R] in European Portuguese is a French influence in Portuguese, firstly in Lisbon, but spreeding to the rest of the country. The usual is [r] like in spanish. The same in the case of the nh... some authors dont agree on the \j\, that's why I choose not to put it. But your explaination was ok.

In case that you dont know in Portugal, some ending "l" in a middle of a word, many pronunce it has w. And some in the end, pronunce it has an \l\ After a t and a d in European Portuguese a sound between the consonant and the vowel can also occur e.g.: onde: \õds1\ (onde), etc. etc.

"Toda torta". It means the display of the table was horrible, full of words and explaining dialects. The article is not close to be euro-centric, see French language (this one even had a section about the languages of France) or Spanish language (see the examples), by far this is more neutral, and respects most dialects. I had a compared work on Brazilian (Rio) and Portuguese (Lisbon) dialects, by real and neutral linguists. But I can't find it. It would help. And it was one of the references. Your opinion is in fact based on a non-neutral person, buts that's another and long story, behond wikipedia. -Pedro 16:49, 5 May 2005 (UTC)


 * by the way, the Portuguese language literature article, that I now divided it into several, was a cut-and-paste of the catholic encyclopedia, but even that you criticise to be Portugal-centric (aka me). enfim! -Pedro 16:55, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

European Union
The EU is a sui generis institution. I saw in the article Greek language, the EU being stated. The CIA also does it. Please don't compare the EU to Mercosul or NAFTA... that would be very dumb. If someone disagrees please state why. I think the same should be done with the other 19 official languages. -Pedro 23:19, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Portuguese was not Vulgar Latin?!
PedantPrick then what it was? Japanese? Portuguese was língua vulgar aka sermus vulgaris aka Vulgar Latin. Thought the reference is not really needed. -Pedro 22:14, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * No, you're wrong. Portuguese CAME from Vulgar Latin, that doesn't mean it was Vulgar Latin when Afonso declared it to be the Portuguese language.  Just because it was a vulgar (common) language at the time doesn't mean it was Vulgar Latin -- there are many 'vulgar' languages. ThePedanticPrick 22:45, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * the meaning was the same! Noone ever called Vulgar Latin has Vulgar Latin (I believe) but has Vulgar Language/Sermo Vulgaris (the language of the people), Roman, etc.., see the catholic encyclopedia. yes, there are many vulgar languages, are you trying to say "Portuguese Vulgar Latin"? yes, it was. That is clear in the article. It wasnt Afonso, it was King Denis, O trovador. He only officialized it because it was used in poetry, and he was one of the poets. Well, unless if you are speaking on a more technical term, like in this article: Vulgar Latin. -Pedro 23:37, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Assistance
The Portuguese section of Romance copula needs some attention. If you can describe the difference between ser and estar, go for it! Chameleon 22:56, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Chameleon, I don't know Spanish very well, but I believe Portuguese usage is similar to the Spanish one, except that "ficar" or sometimes "ser" is used for location instead of "estar", e.g. "O teatro fica na Rua São João". Also, Portuguese is more conservative than Spanish in the sense of retaining "ser" in situations where modern Spanish uses "estar", e.g. we say in Portuguese "A casa é feita de madeira", when Spaniards, I believe, would say "La casa está hecha de madera".

A good way to a non-native speaker of portuguese to learn the difference between both would be to think of it in a temporal sense; that is to say you use ser meaning to be in a somewhat permanent way, in which is not likely or intended to change (as in nationalities, or traits of personality); estar also means to be, but theres a connotation that the situation may change, or is temporary. Therefore you can conclude that estar is used as equivalent to to be when meaning locations, or moods. An example: "Eu estou feliz" e "Eu sou feliz" both mean "I am happy". The first sentence, however, implies that "I am happy now", while the second simply states "I am happy and theres no reason to think I wont be in the near future. Hope to have clarified something.LtDoc 01:24, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Namibia
It seems highly unlikely that 20% of Namibians speak Portuguese as a native language. --Henrygb 13:16, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * They live mostly in a refugee area near the border with Angola and are mostly Portuguese speaking Angolans (so people from urban areas) running from the war that was going on until recently, they are there a long time, they have houses and even schools. -Pedro 02:11, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I believe the most common European language spoken in Namibia is actually Afrikaans, i.e. the modified variety of Dutch used in South Africa. English (one of the official languages of Namibia) and German (the language of the former colonial ruler of the country) are also used. I doubt a significant number of people speak Portuguese, as you claim. At least, no reliable source that I checked confirms your information.
 * There are sources in Portuguese in the net (and I even watch it on TV), now I dont know which (on the net). But a probable source should be the UN. Try that one. -Pedro

I just made a simple search "Português Namíbia", but without numbers, but with these blocks maybe you will open your mind: Portuguese MinIstry of Education Spanish Site- Expolingua other links When I got some time, I'll do a better search. Another way is going to the country and visit the boarder area and cities with Angola. Another is seeing the weight of the Angolan population and the Namibian one. It would give you the best view of it! The fact, that the government or in main cities a language is spoken it doesnt mean that others arent. Try get info by the UN, I'll try to search on the net, when I got some time. -Pedro 02:40, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Trema
The trema (ü) (aka conseqüente) is strictly optional in Brazil and it's death in actual literature.


 * I'm afraid you're wrong. The diaeresis is part of the Brazilian Portuguese grammar, and if it's not used when it's necessary, the word in question is considerred wrong. As far as I know, this was never optional at any point in the history. It's there to be used.--Kaonashi 03:26, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Last books in last years in Brazil trema is not used anymore. In public tests for federal employees the trema is note need and is not wrong if you don't use them.


 * http://educaterra.terra.com.br/sualingua/03/03_trema.htm


 * Be sure to check the last link on that article, too.


 * By the way, that might look not very reliable, but you can pay a Google search and you'll understand it all pretty fast. That was my first result, and the site is hosted by Terra, so they can't be THAT wrong, can they? There's and old myth surrouding the "trema", but it never proved to be real. It's still there. It's still a rule. Now if people want to stop using it, that's their problem. They won't change the grammar by doing that.--Kaonashi 03:48, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Mr. kaonashi did you also read the article Portugal VS. Brasil? One ignorant Portuguese per one ignorant Brazilian I should say. His answer your questions that you address to me, that I had no patiance to reply. BTW, there is any Brazilian Portuguese grammar, and you can not change the graphical use in the Portuguese language, the language is runned by law since the 12th century, a tradition that Brazil also toked and it stop being a mere oral language in the 12th century, because of its complexity its natural that some people find somethings very complex, the difference my friend, is the education level of one person. Yes, the use can change, the Portuguese stop using the diaeresis, before it was abolished because it seemed ugly, just like Brazilians "abolished" the deaf consonants. -Pedro 02:04, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I read your post several times, but unfortunately I still have no idea of what you just tried proving to me. It's probably because of your "rushed" English, but I see no sense on what you said. "Ignorant"? That article you linked to says nothing about what we were talking about here, on this topic. By all means, the diaresis is indeed used in Brazil, by rule. Now, are you trying to say we should just drop this conversation and accept the way things are, just like that author suggested on that article? Sounds fine to me. It was already dropped, before you brought it back.--Kaonashi 02:52, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I said there is no Brazilian Portuguese Grammar, the diaresis is part of the Brazilian Port. ortography. My previous text is full of irony. Is up to you understanding it or not. -Pedro 13:38, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * You wanted to say that the Brazilians who do not use Trema because are not cultured. Ok, the language come of Portugal but passed and is passing for modifications. As well the opressor and tradicionalist culture of your country was changes here, too. --Mateusc 03:29, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Nope, I didnt said nothing of that! Mateus, you're in a middle of a conversation, and you missunderstood it. I even said, that the trema was abolished in Portugal, before it was officially abolished, because people dislike it. And I understand that Brazilians also dont like it, it make words ungly and it is not a Latin symbol. You're maybe wrong about what the culture of Portugal really is. Though, obviously, if you see the act of writting well has traditionalist, then we are traditionalist, most countries are, in fact, all countries with some degree of development are and even less degree, I think noone wants to be seen has ignorant. -Pedro 10:20, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Claims of close relationship to the French language
This claim would be unlikely to be accepted by mainstream linguists: "Interestingly, French is more closely related to Portuguese than it is to Spanish, even though Spain has a common boundary with France, while Portugal does not." Although Portuguese shares some vocabulary with French and other Romance languages, grammatically is more closely aligned with Castillian Spanish than with French. It also shares many more cultural influences, for example those derived from the Moorish control of much of the Iberian peninsula during a key period in the development of both languages. --ManOnABus 13:44, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC) To remember, the person who wrote that in the article has my complete approval. I cant find any theory in that. Just plain truth. And, I doubt that anyone can find info about that using google! -Pedro 17:31, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Honestly, French has a big influence on Portuguese (both in lexicon and even in sounds), much greater than Spanish, and in relation with Arabic things are not quit like that. Spanish has the double of the Arabic lexicon that Portuguese has. You should read that sentence again: I don't see any inconsistancy - it explains the dipthongization in Spanish where in Portuguese and French it didn't occured. Portuguese and French even share nasal vowels - something that "mainstream" Spanish hasn't. Both languages share a lot (really a lot) of sounds. No one doubts that Portuguese and Spanish are more related than both towards French. Read the sentance again and you will get it. There are other influences and semilarities between Portuguese and French especially in Lisbon Portuguese (the use of the /1/ sound). I agree with the sentence in the article, it is quite a different look at things but with truth. -Pedro 02:00, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I think these claims need to be substantiated (and sources cited) by some legitimate linguistic research, not just observations and speculations. To me, Portuguese and Italian sound very similar when spoken, but you don't hear me claiming that they are closely related.  Comparing Pt. bom to Fr. bon is a particularly weak example, since, if I'm not mistaken, the difference between bom and bueno can be explained by a simple dipthong shift and some nasalization.  This could easily have happened over the many centuries of Portugal being separated from Spain; no influence from France is necessary. I'm not saying that French had no influence on Portuguese; indeed, French has likely influenced (and been influenced by) almost all European languages and even some non-European ones.  But the claim that Portuguese was more influenced than Spanish needs to be corroborated.  Thank you.  ThePedanticPrick 18:18, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Bom is pronunced the same way in Portuguese and in French: [bõ]. The Alphabet is pronunced the same way. Abcdef... etc... In spanish it is very different. Although Spain is closer geographically to Portugal is very far in other areas. France, in the mind of the people and culturally, is much closer. Today, there is even the issue of the TGV train, that it has to go throw Spain. Many people still think it should go on a strait line to France, but in Spanish territory are the Spanish who decide. There are also influences during the Napoleonic dominion in Portugal. I've come by, more than once with this problem, the citing sources problem. Not everyone uses the NET (aka google)! and that's a very bad source to proper information! Just see some given links in this talk. And when I try to search using Google I cant find it! Even if I had previously found it. :S And How can you search things that you learned in school? And has I previously said, and continue to say, English is a bad source to find proper information about Portuguese. There are even those people that use English and the net to spread lies over the net. I found the most incredible things even in serious websites! Because they use info some bad-intentioned users gave them.
 * Dearest Pedro, I don't want to seem like I'm trying to insult you, but are you honestly serious that "people think the [TGV] should go on a strai[gh]t line to France"?  A quick glance at a map shows us that the only straight line from Portugal to France goes through Spain.  It would make NO SENSE whatsoever to have a train going through the ocean AROUND Spain when the shortest route is through Castilla y Leon and the Basque country.  Never mind that there might be some Spaniards who could conceivably want to catch a ride (and would be providing the lion's share of the financial backing, no offence)! This sort of thinking calls your crediblity on other topics into serious question. I have no personal objection to your theory that French and Portuguese are closely related, but you must base your assertions in fact.  This it not a theology debate or a Sunday school where faith in your beliefs will get you any points.  Please find some real-world research to support your claims, not fanciful stories about prejudiced Portugueses who hold a fanciful view of European geography. It's a good theory, don't taint it by using ludicrous assumptions to prop it up.  ThePedanticPrick 22:17, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I just remembered a possible reason: During the middle Ages, in the Portuguese Reconquista entire towns where settled by people from France, the Vila Francas - so there was an early French /Frank imigration to Portugal that could be a reason for that similarity. Due to the expulsion of the Moors, the South of Portugal needed population. --Pedro 10:17, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * PedanticPrick, what I told you (the TGV thing) was just to say, until very recently, the fact that Portugal and Spain do share a border, that didn’t mean much. The interaction was very short. That was the point (I'm not talking about putting TVG on the Atlantic or in the air; it is just a glimpse on cultural issues for a foreigner to understand). And the interaction has always been bigger with France than with Spain - that simply didn’t exist (except for the short period of the Iberian Union). That's the only thing that I said, and that is the truth! Today, things got a bit different. But many people still think the same. Do you get me now? If you continue with the idea that the fact, both countries share a border, is a strong reason for the similarity of the languages, please think again and get informed - go read some history, talk with people. The only reason that both languages are so similar is only due to strong Romanization in both countries. Just that, interaction in History has been kept very low (almost only with Galicians and Extremadurans). With the Castilians, in particular, almost inexistent. When two brothers get bored with each other, and they stop talking to each other, living in the same house, doesn’t change much - they will not talk and avoid talking to each other. I experience that, with people, and with these two countries is very much the same. The fact, that English is massively influenced by French, doesn’t mean that others are! Don’t forget that Portuguese and French have the same origin, so most words where already common and the French influence on Portuguese is very superficial. About the French influence on Spanish, I don’t know. What I know is that the related languages topics is too big, and very few important for an article about the language. -Pedro 15:19, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Just wading into to this one again...One of the examples given of the closeness of Portuguese to French is - "Portuguese "filha", French "fille" and Catalan "filla" are opposed to Spanish "hija"." It should be noted that the obvious root of the word for daughter in the languages is the latin "filia". Castillian Spanish has many examples of replacing the Latin "f" with a silent "h" - hacer-facare, hoja-folia, humo-fumus are just three examples. My point is, there is no serious defence of this very contentious claim here (to be polite :-)). Is there a consensus to delete it? --ManOnABus 21:28, 15 Jul 2005 (UTC)


 * I've think it's better now. I've restricted the closeness to phonology, in which it is more clear. All right or still to delete? José San Martin 20:05, July 16, 2005 (UTC)


 * It's certainly more accurate. Whether the phonological closeness is worth commenting upon is a matter beyond my competence. To that extent I would withdraw my suggestion that the closeness claim be deleted. Thanks to Sanmartin for a positive contribution.--ManOnABus 22:08, 04 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Brazilian Pronunciation
In the section EXAMPLES, I changed a bit the pronunciation of the words. 1 - There were some little wrong things, like accent of the sylabe. 2 - It had the Rio de Janeiro accent, wich due to historical reasons (the royal portuguese family had been to Rio), has a portuguese-like accent.

The accent I has put is a neutral accent.

(I'm brazilian, from São Paulo)


 * OK. Thought people in Brazil usually find Rio de Janeiro Portuguese the closest to the European, I think it is the Northeastern dialects. I just disagree with one thing: For instance /i&#771;'gle&#618;s/ should be /i&#771;'glejs/ the "i" is a semi-vowel, so it is a \j\ in IPA. It is not the Portuguese J.-Pedro 19:49, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * There were a number of mistakes in the Brazilian pronunciation.

See "A Grammar of Spoken Brazilian Portuguese", Earl W. Thomas, and "The Romance Languages", Martin Harris and NIgel Vincent.

Also, the words for "hello" and "yes" did not seem to match normal Brazilian usage.

The representation of 'nh' may not turn out well. In Brazil, it is *not* an ñ as in Spanish, but a nasal /j/.

Benwing 03:29, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Portuguese in Guiné-Bissau
I think that it should be noted that, inspite of being the national language, Portuguese is hardly spoken in Guiné-Bissau. It is learned only in private schools (in the cities). The urban population speaks creole and outside of the cities, not even creole is spoken much. I know this for fact (my girlfriend is from Guiné-Bissau). If you have need for more specifics, please let me know. If not, please consider putting this addendum.
 * Portuguese is not the national language in Guinea Bissau, there's no national language there - there are several! Portuguese is just the official language, there's a lingua Franca, the Crioulo (the Portuguese Creole). And, the Crioulo is becoming very popular there has Lingua Franca, it is spoken today by more than 60% and growing. Due to permanent war, the Portuguese language itself is fewly spoken (mostly spoken by urban man), that was in the article, now is part of The Geography of the Portuguese language... where there's info about all the African countries. The Creole could become a national language, it is being taught everywhere there, even in trees o_O - it has the same use that standard Portuguese has in Mozambique (communicate with people, that are from other regions). About the note, if you read the article, you'll see that only 15% of the population in the country speaks Portuguese... so, that is already in the article. BTW, these levels of use of the Official language are very common in the rest of the African countries with French, English, or Portuguese has official languages. The exception is Angola, where Portuguese is largely spoken. I dont know if there are similar cases in other countries about other languages, surely there are. -Pedro 23:31, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * But, please, if you have specific info, add in the proper article the info you have. As you see, I just disagree with your info about the creole - it is very far from the truth (60% is a fine number). Althought it is often used has a second language. Guinea-Bissau is a country with just 1,5 million inhabitants. -Pedro 10:10, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation sound file
I might be in over my head, but I tried recording "Portugese" in Portugese even though I'm not a native speaker.

Here's the recording:.

If others approve, I'd like to put it in the introduction next to Portugese. karmosin 20:40, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)


 * Which Pronunciation are you using? Lisbon or Rio de Janeiro? Between both there's a change in the pronunciation of the R (not so round in Lisbon - has it is in the article) and more silent in Rio. Maybe if you change the \o\ to an \u\ - it is often used in both dialects and it would seem more natural. Although you can also use an "o" but not emphasized - pronunced somewhat speedly.-Pedro 12:24, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * The sound for European Portuguese for "português" the r was incorrect, I've corrected it. Sorry. -Pedro 02:02, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

To be honest, I know barely anything about Portugese except what I know through my breif studies of Latin and Spanish and that the phonology for some reason reminds me of Russian (which I am a native speaker of). Here are two more attempts. If none of these sound right I'll leave it to the natives to record.



Amazing article you've compiled here, btw. It should serve as an inspiration to all other language articles. I'll try to get it translated into Swedish as soon as I can. Peter Isotalo 21:08, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)


 * Oh thanks. I'm just perfectionist, and when I come by with some related interresting subject in the news, or papers, I just open wikipedia. The sound is very nice now. -Pedro 00:23, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I find your pronunciation closer to pt-pt (portuguese of Portugal, as opposed to pt-br, portuguese of Brasil); but even so, people from Portugal usually speak quicker than brasilians. A perferct mark for pt-pt would be to use the same time to pronunciate porto and guês.LtDoc 22:46, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Educated Brazillians?
I want to know who these Brazilians are that are going to college so they can sound more like Yoquinhos. I find the phrase "between educated Brazillians and Portuguese these differences are reduced", to be a classic example of PedroPVZ's (yes, he's back) Portugal-centric attitude and feelings of superiority, not to mention his often ludicrous assertions that strain his credibility. The implication is obvious: if educated Brazilians are easier for portuguese to understand, than the majority of Brazillians are speaking in a manner that Pedro finds uneducated. What an open-minded way to view dialectical differences! Admittedly, I do not know many Brazillians, much less educated ones, but I doubt that they speak that much differently from the rest of their countrymen. If some intelligent brazilians, whose credibility has not been called into question repeatedly in the past, would like to correct me otherwise, I would welcome that. But until then, Pedro's perceptions should not be masquerading as legitimate research. ThePedanticPrick 23:12, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * look, I dont know why you are so irritated, but that comment was offensive, and I really wouldnt reply, but I did. You seem to like me a lot, didnt you like what I said to you the other day? I was not the only one to say that, and this that you are now asking, someone also said to you previously. I have to add to his ideas that are two classes of rich people, the newly rich and traditional. But what you want is to irretate me. If educated seems not an appropriate word in English, change it. I believe that was not the original word! It is not Portuguese superiority because I believe I dindt put that word. And half of my family is Brazilian. Again, you are talking about issues you dont know. That occurs in every language, specifically with Latin ones. And, lower class speaks differently from the higher classes (lexicon, forms of treatment, incorrect use of the language, etc.), in Brazil the gap is bigger than in Portugal. Who's talking about dialects? that is about socialets. The gap between rich and poor is bigger than between different regions. IT IS JUST THAT! Your mind is perversive. Insted of putting you anger, you should first search and then comment! You dont need to believe in me. You just need to learn to research, there is plenty of info on that on the net. All Brazilians are easy for a Portuguese to understand. I dont edit without reserching, the one that talks without knowing is you, once more. I dont find Brazilian dialects uneducated, my dialect isnt also standard Portuguese. you should measure your words and assumptions! If you are irritated, jump from a bridge! -Pedro 00:16, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * If you think that's offensive, that's ok! While I was archiving I saw you thought that the adaptations on books, were done because people wouldnt understand it (you also said some Portuguese wouldnt understand some Brazilian dialects - what isnt by any mean true). In fact, Brazilian books are 100% understood, but it is not in the taste of the portuguese reader and the proper European ortography. Not all books are adapted: José Saramago isnt adapted in Brazil and Jorge Amado isnt in Portugal. That doesnt happen with Paulo Coelho, it is light literature, so it is always adapted. Brazilian influence in Portugal is similar to the US influence in the UK. Brazilian soap operas (not dubbed) are for some 25 years on Portuguese TV and always in the TOP 3 of the most watched programmes and there are numerous Brazilian publications in Portugal. I'm calmed down I expect you also to be. -Pedro 01:32, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Pedro, buddy, I'm very calm. I like the way the sentence is worded now.  I'm sure that the differences between formal speech and writing of most regions that share a language is closer together than the vernacular(slang).  The vernacular is always the place where the most change takes place.  The old sentence simply did not express this. On a similar note, I'm not sure what "cultivated" portuguese is meant to mean in that same paragraph.  Could you elaborate (if you know)?  Thank you. ThePedanticPrick 18:53, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I've translated "culto" to "cultivated". And it has the same meaning that the one of "educated". In Angola for instance, the rich people, politicians, etc. speak a Portuguese in an identical way to standard Portuguese (spoken, written), while part of the population speaks differently. For instance, I've African friends that speak a more standardized form of Portuguese than me.

for instante: it is very common to hear Angolans say: "Tu fala isso!" = You "speaks" that! instead of "tu falas isso!". This issue occurs in Brazil, exactly the same way. And, also people use a lot of slang, that even if Portuguese people also use it, both aren't used in the standard form. That is what it means, the problem is how to write that in a short paragraph.

This occurs with written but also the spoken Portuguese. Obviously, The vernaculars of Portugal is also different from the standard. I think it would be interesting to write that Brazilian dialects, are based on southern Portuguese dialects, are very preservative (Portuguese spoken in the 18th century, except for Rio that has influence of European Portuguese of a later time -19th/early 20th centuries) and in some Brazilian dialect we can find particularities of a given dialect in Portugal (north to south) - this is interresting, due that Portugal's dialects vary more than Brazil's, at least the main ones. But the problem is the same: is this really needed? Arent we assuming to much? (needless to say, this is not exactly this way and, the article will grow to much. And, the enclyclopedia is in English, so it is not very important, because the person that will read, will not understand it anyway, and will make a confusion out of that - just like you make in thinking: "it is maybe too different and they dont understand each other". -Pedro 23:57, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * By the way, Coimbra dialect is considered the most cultivated because of the pronunciation. If you can rephrase the paragraph, please do. -Pedro 10:31, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Just to mention: Tu fala is not a "serious" subject in Portuguese than an English speaker might think.
 * you speak (singular) can be said, two ways: Angolans and Brazilians do is, in fact, mixing both.

The last one is the most used in Brazil, the "tu fala" occurs in some dialects in Brazil. In Portugal both are used depending on the situation or person that we are talking. Talking to another person is very complex in Portuguese. Obviously, this doesnt makes these dialects creoles, not even semi-creoles. The language is much more than this. -Pedro 23:06, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * tu falas and
 * você fala

Request for references
Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when you have added a few references to the article. - Taxman 20:00, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * I've added some that I used. Later, I'll add more.-Pedro 00:27, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Great, thank you, please do. - Taxman 03:24, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

Contracto/Contrato
Hello. I'm new here, so I'm not sure this is the best place to discuss this. Anyway, I just read the article and noticed a small error in the European/Brazillian Portuguese differences table: 'Contracto' and 'Contrato' are completely unrelated.


 * 'Contrato' means contract (both in European and Brazillian Portuguese).
 * 'Contracto' means contracted (adjective; same as above). It's a synonym to 'Contraído'.

Though some people confuse them, these are completely different words, with different meanings, and therefore bad examples to this table. I removed the line. Regards, Alfred300p 02:42, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)

Odd redirect
about this edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Portuguese_language&diff=0&oldid=6888271 I just saw that Portuguese literature is redirecting to Portuguese language literature (a rather strange and deceptive thing, by the way), so sorry for the comment on that summary. But the template was buggy in any case. RodC

Mistakes in the article
Hi. After reading the article, I noticed a couple of mistakes:


 * 1) In one of the tables, it is informed that 99% of the Brazilian population is formed by native speakers.  That information is wrong.  The actual figure as calculated by all research institutes (such as IBGE) is 100%.  Non-native speakers in Brazil are basically immigrants and a small number of isolated indian communities, usually concentrated in the Amazon Basin.  Those numbers, even combined, are statiscally irrelevant.
 * 2) The expression "portuñol" or "portunhol" is not a "hybrid dialect" formed by mixing Portuguese and Spanish.  It is actually a pejorative expression used in referrence to erroneous use of either language by a native speaker of the other who is unable to filter out some similar words and ends up speaking a confusing blend of the two (as commonly said of Brazilians trying to communicate in Spanish when they have no control of the language &mdash; so they throw in some words in Spanish that they happen to know but keep the entire structure of the sentences and many other words in Portuguese &mdash; the result is sometimes confusing for natives of either language to understand).  It is common to say to someone pejoratively: "What language are you speaking? Portunhol?" when they are making no sense.  "Portunhol" is more common in border areas, as many Brazilians cross over to countries such as Uruguay, Argentina and Paraguay and natives of those countries visit Brazil as well.  Many of these people try to ease communication barriers by throwing some words in Portuguese or Spanish (depending on what is their native tongue) and end up "speaking portunhol".  There is no rule to "speak portunhol" once or ever, each person makes up his/her own as they go along.  As a result, portunhol changes from person to person, so there's absolutely no characteristic in it that would even resemble a language or a dialect.


 * Actually, I think that the 99 % figure is fairly accurate. A "native speaker" means someone who speaks Portuguese as first language. Well, Portuguese is NOT the first language of most Brazilian Indians who are, according to the latest Census, approximately 0.45 % of the population. Second, according to IBGE, something like 0.6 or 0.7 % of the population of Brazil is actually foreign-born (down from a historical peak of 5 % in the early 20th century and compared to a contemporary figure of 12 % or so for the U.S). Of course, that might look like a small number, but, still, excluding those born in Portugal, most of those foreign-born residents of Brazil do not speak Portuguese as their native language. Moreover, even among native-Born Brazilians, there are still a few homes where kids learn some other language (i.e. their "native language") before learning Portuguese. That is still the case for example in some German communities in the rural South. Overall, I would say that 1 % of non-native speakers of Portuguese is a reliable guess.


 * Would it be code switching as in Spanglish or Llanito? -- Error 01:42, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * More like spanglish (arbitrary) than llanito (stabilished), but yes. Portunhol is regarded as a failed communication attempt. The common accepted communication method between the open frontier Brazil-Uruguay is the Brazilian speaking plain Portuguese and the Uruguayan speaking plain Spanish. The languages are close enough to permit communication, even though it's a somewhat "blurred" communication. I don't know what usually happens in other frontiers like the Foz do Iguaçu, the triple frontier (Brazil-Argentina-Paraguay). --Ekevu (talk) 12:29, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I hope this is helpful. Regards, Redux 14:18, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Grammar and spelling changes
Hi, everyone. I have made some changes to the grammar and spelling, especially to the section Written Varieties and Spelling Reform, but not being a subject-matter expert, I would like to encourage everyone who has contributed to make sure I have not inadvertently changed the meaning of one of your sentences. It seems like a lot of this stuff has been posted by people for whom English is a second-language (not that there's anything wrong with that) and this can be a source of misunderstandings. I apologize if this, or my lack of knowledge about developments in the language has caused me to make semantic, rather than syntactical changes. Thank you ThePedanticPrick 20:56, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Example given only valid for European Portuguese
There are problems with the following: "In particular, when constructing a future tense or conditional tense expression involving an indirect object pronoun, the pronoun is placed between the verb stem and the verb ending. For example, Dupondt said trazer-vos-emos o vosso ceptro. Translating as literally as possible, this is "bring (stem)-to you (formal)-we (future) the your scepter". In English we would say, "We will bring you your scepter." The form Nós vos traremos o vosso ceptro. is also correct, used mainly in spoken Portuguese, while the first form is prefered for written Portuguese"

The problem with all of this is that in Brazil, a land of over 175 million speakers of Portuguese, it would be rare indeed to find someone who would write the above. He would be ridiculed and seen as pompous or someone living in a world long gone from the Brazilian reality. The forms above, spoken or written, are just not used, period. Vós hasn´t been used since Cabral. When we speak of Portuguese we must differentiate between the two varieties. No one in Brazil says or writes, "ele deu-mo" or "vi-o". The common form in speech is "ele me deu" and "vi ele". A more educated person might say "eu o vi" but the use of the subject pronoun after the verb has become so common that many descriptive Brazilian linguists accept it as the standard form. In Portugal it would be considered incorrect.

RV
 * RV, you're not correct. Brazilians often say "Ele me deu", most Brazilian are teached "Ele deu-me" often used by upper class Brazilians - a similar problem occurs in Portugal in other situations (but this issue occurs more in Brazil "Ele me deu" is also very common in Portugal). I usually talk to Brazilians from the Northeast, and some of them (I usually talk to mid-class) use "vós" more than I do (but they use vós not to a group, but to a single person, an that use has fallen into disusse- And I never used it. In Portugal, Vós is also fewly used, unfortunnately (even in Northern Portugal, the region that still uses it a lot) - the South doesnt use it much like Brazil. This is due to prestige of "vocês" and difficulty in conjugation of the "vós" - the hardest in Portuguese. -Pedro 01:37, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Pedro, I didn't say that Brazilians DIDN'T use "ele me deu". I said that the COMMON form was "ele me deu". Just the opposite. Of course many educated Brazilians do. I am only pointing out that the example of the placement of the pronoun ex. falar-lhe-ei is only valid for formal Continental Portuguese. Brazilians would not even know how to do it. I am not sure if it is even taught at school. Concerning the use of vós, I had never heard it used by one Brazilian in twenty years of Brasil and I was surrounded by nordestinos who had gone to Brasilia to work. It would be interesting to get feedback from Brazilians on this.
 * That use of "vós" i found in Pernambuco/Recife. Also remember that Brazilians are also teached how to use the "vós" in School (the "vós" for a single person is equivaletn with "thy" in English.You misslead me in something. Just a correction: "ele me deu" is correct in many cases, e.g. "porque ele me deu" and you should never use "porque ele deu-me". wrong Portuguese in Brasil is "Me deu", and, almost never used in Portugal. Starting a phrase with "ME" or "ti", etc... is considered incorrect, even if "many" (mostly undereducated) in Brazil do it. e.g.: "Me dá um cigarro" insted of "Dá-me um cigarro". "falar-lhe-ei" is correct in Brazilian Portuguese, more fewly used than in Portugal, but still prestigious Portuguese (seem has a something odd just like in Portugal) and taught. We must have in mind also, the big gap between the higher Brazilian society and the lowest. Cultivated Brazilian Portuguese is very similar to the European, a thing that many forget and keep allways comparing Cultivated EP with vernacular BP. You are confusing both. When you deal with the vernacular, in Portugal you should deal also with its vernacular. There are some Brazilians in PT wikipedia that are interrest in language affairs. -Pedro 10:26, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

ray is correct, many of these forms are simply inexistant in BP. i have never heard "falar-lhe-ei" in my whole life. PedroPVZ has misconceptions that the european forms are the standard in brazil, which simply isn't true. not even extremely posh people would use "falar-lhe-ei", i wonder if any brazilian would even be capable of doing these kind of forms, and i can't even remember being taught these forms either, even though much of what we are taught in school is indeed heavily based on european portuguese. for example, we are taught many verb forms, conjugations, etc, that sound extremely archaic to us, but i guess it's a bit like learning latin. most kids don't like it, although they can generaly remember some of the stuff when they grow older. that's probably why written portuguese texts are not that difficult to understand for brazilians. however, the way more "educated" or "posh" speakers talk, is more defined in their accent and in the choice of words, rather than being based on archaic grammar rules. after all, they have to be understood. concerning the use of "vós", i have never heard it being used at all in real life or on tv, and although there is technically a small chance that some regional dialect might still use it, i have never heard of that. it is true that "tú", although not the standard, still exists in some regions, but even "tú" is not used as in portugal, and the verb is conjugated like it conjugates for "você". Vbs 12:07, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Archaic? LOL. Maybe you never went to school ;) Maybe you arent Brazilian afteer all. The use of "tu" in Brazil although incorrectly used by young people is seen has very "cool", neveer archaic. It ssems VBS is speaking for all Brazilians. -RonaldoBr 19:55, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * BTW, I loved the idea of European Portuguese seeming Latin. Eheh. Vbs get a life, will you? -RonaldoBr 19:57, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Sounds like I'll have to clear up a couple of things here. We're mainly dealing with three examples here: The "falar-lhe-ei" kind of conjugation, "vós" and "tu". First of all, Brazilians DO learn those things at school. I can't speak for the whole lot, since I've studied my entire life in the same school, and it was a private one. However, I'm pretty sure everybody learns those things, whether for good or not. The "falar-lhe-ei" thing is ALMOST NEVER USED, REGARDLESS OF WHO THE HELL YOU ARE IN BRAZIL. There's no game, you can't deny that. It doesn't matter if you're a high class, top society "burguês". If you say that, it's like you're writing "PRETENTIOUS" in your forehead. No, better. Big, flashing, neon lights.


 * We are taught how to use that in school, but that's just because the Brazilian Portuguese is still heavily connected to an archaic, European Portuguese system. This bothers a countless number of people, but it's not like we can do anything. The old guys on the fancy chairs in charge of dictating the grammar rules for the Brazilian Portuguese are either too lazy or too afraid to change anything and aim for something more modern (and more Brazilian). Thing is, that ain't used. Nobody does. It was used in the past, but today it's just dead. It is correct, but it's pretty much extinct in terms of use.


 * "Vós" and "tu". Those are the personal pronouns for the second person, for plural and singular, respectively. What happens is, they are no longer largely used. We still see people using "tu" a lot, like in the south. It's just normal for people like them, and it doesn't really bother no one. Here in São Paulo, people are most likely to not see that kind of thing, but since this is the big metropolis, things usually get more mixed. About "vós", it's even less used. I really can't remember the last time I heard that here. Also, Pedro is probably thinking of "vos", as in "vos encontrei aqui", and not "vós", as in "vós sois muito simpáticos". I might be wrong here, but I think those things are different. While it's not THAT hard to see the first form being used here, you'll have to be a pretty lucky guy to hear the last one, unless the person is joking/mocking that manner of speaking.


 * Those two pronoums fell in disuse for a reason I'm not sure of. "Você" and "vocês" are more common today, throughout the entire Brazil (for comparative means). Those new pronoums are pretty weird, since "tu", for instance, has characteristics of third person pronoums, and yet it is used as a second person pronoum. I'm not sure of how grammatically correct that is, but something's for sure: Those are much more used than "tu/vós" will ever be.


 * Concluding, what the original poster said is very much correct. You might think all those "posh" forms are freely used by the certain "Brazilian elite" you're talking about. However, that is not true. People generally aim for naturalness, not artificiality. It doesn't matter who you are: If you get too heavy on the lingo, you'll be mocked to no end. Sure, some people do talk the talk, and that happens for a lot of reasons I don't need to mention here, but you won't see people crossing the borderline and going all "Onde estão minhas chaves? Pensei tê-las guardado em minhas algibeiras. Como levá-la-ei para o baile agora?". Lighten up, peeps.


 * Also, I don't think you have any idea of what you are talking about, Ronaldo. That guy said those things SOUND archaic. That's a hell lot different, you know. And we do believe those things are way too distant from our reality, hence pointless. It's pretty much archaic for us, yes. About "tu", I don't know if the kids like that and find it "trendy" or whatever. All I know is that it's being forgotten. If it's being forgotten, it's getting old. If it's getting old, it's one step closer to be seen as "archaic". I think it's you who are not Brazilian, after all. The "Br" on your name might be enough for most people... but I ain't so sure. And if you are... you should pay a little more attention to things. Stand up for your country. Make us proud. – Kaonashi 02:55, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Kaonashi, I picked up a copy of Veronika Decide Morrer by Paolo Coelho when I was in Portugal, and it was full of those constructions that you say are completely archaic, specifically the putting of the object in the middle of the word with dashes (eg "falar-lhe-ei"). The characters also address each other as "tú", except in formal situations where they use "você."  However, when one of the (Slovenian) characters is living in Brasilia, his parents address him as "você".  This struck me as odd, considering that Paolo Coelho is a Brazillian author.  Do you or anyone else know if Brazillian novels are routinely localized for Portuguese readers (or vice-versa)?  This seems like a literary atrocity to me.  Imagine translating Huckleberry Fin or Treasure Island into a more "understandable" dialect!  You'd lose half of the charm of the original!    ThePedanticPrick 05:00, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 PedanticPrick , many constructions that are considered archaic in Brazil like "fá-lo-ei" are still used in the literary language. In fact, a few years ago, Brazilian writer João Ubaldo Ribeiro actually wrote a letter to a national newspaper defending his "right" to use the mesoclitic pronouns. The truth however is that even the writing manuals of leading newspapers (e.g. "O Estado de São Paulo", "Folha de São Paulo", etc...) advise reporters to avoid that construction as it sounds, well, pedantic. That doesn't mean though that newspapers always avoid "archaic language". For example, the synthetic pluperfect (e.g. "dissera", "fizera") is quite rare in spoken Brazilian Portuguese, but it is commonly used by most newspaper columnists. As for the "tu"/"vós" discussion, here is a summary of what actually happens in the modern spoken language:

(1) "Vós" is archaic, both in Brazil AND in Portugal; it is used only in religious services or in very formal literary language.

(2) "Tu" is widely used in Portugal as the informal 2nd person form of address; in Brazil, "tu" is used only in poetry/music, or in regional (e.g. "gaúcho") varieties of the language, in the latter case often with the incorrect verb conjugation (e.g. "tu falou" instead of "tu falaste"). Otherwise, "você" followed by the appropriate 3rd person verb form is the standard form for "you" in almost all situations in Brazil and, in the case of formal address (when talking to a stranger for example) in Portugal. To make things more complicated, one can also say "you" in Portuguese using the construction "o senhor/ a senhora" (e.g. "A senhora precisa de ajuda ? ", lit. "The lady needs help?"). Generally, this form of address is reserved both in Brazil and in Portugal to formal occasions, e.g. to address someone who is much older than you (in Brazil, sometimes to address your parents) or to talk to someone who is hierarchically superior to you (like your boss), a public authority, or, in the case of students, sometimes your teachers or professors. In Portugal specifically and, to lesser extent, in some parts of Brazil (e.g. the Northeast), in addition to "o senhor/a senhora", there is a large array of similar expressions used to mean you (formal), e.g. "o pai"/"a mãe" when addressing your parents; "o engenheiro"/"o doutor" when addressing someone who has those respective titles; "a menina" when addressing a young lady, etc...

(3) Since "você" requires third person verb forms, it is somewhat natural that it should be replaced by third person oblique pronouns ("o"/"a" or "lhe") when used respectively as a direct or indirect object. That is actually the rule in standard Portuguese and the most common usage in Portugal. If you watched for example the British movie "Love Actually", you might recall that Sr. Barros, Aurelia's father, addresses Jamie (Collin Firth), by "você" (e.g. "Você quer casar com a minha filha ?") and, at same point, when Jamie asks Sr. Barros to take him to the restaurant where Aurelia works, he replies: "Levo-o lá" ("I will take you there"). That construction however, although correct in standard Portuguese, sounds odd to Brazilians who would prefer, in formal contexts like that, to say "Eu levo o senhor lá". On the other hand, in informal address ,when talking to a friend or an equal addressed by "você", Brazilians would normally say "Eu levo você lá" or "Eu te levo lá". The latter construction with "te", normally the oblique pronoun associated with "tu", reveals one interesting contrast between standard Portuguese and spoken (southeastern) Brazilian Portuguese, i.e. the use of "te" with "você" instead of "o" or "lhe" (e.g. "Você trouxe aquele casaco que eu te dei no Natal ?" cf. Port. " Trouxeste aquele casaco que te dei no Natal ?"). That usage is VERY common in Rio and São Paulo and accepted in colloquial language among the educated middle and upper classes. As far as I can tell, the only situation when Brazilians routinely use the standard "o" for "você" in the spoken language is when "o" follows an infinitive and changes to "-lo", e.g. "Prazer em conhecê-lo" (="Nice to meet you" or "Não preciso lembrá-lo da importância dessa reunião" (="I don't have/need to remind you of the importance of this meeting").

Bottom line: as you may have figured by now, second person address in spoken varieties of Portuguese is actually quite a mess, particularly in Brazil. Of course, as someone said before, Brazilian kids learn the FULL conjugation of all verbs at school, including the "archaic" constructions. They also learn the full range of possible interactions between verbs and oblique pronouns, e.g. "fi-lo, fizeste-o, fê-lo, fizemo-lo, fizeste-lo, fizeram-no"; "fá-lo-ei, fá-lo-ás, fá-lo-á, fá-lo-emos, fá-lo-eis, fá-lo-ão", "faço-o, fazê-lo, fá-lo, fazemo-lo, fazei-lo, fazem-no", etc...


 * quote: "is seen has very 'cool', neveer archaic"
 * hahaha, this post by newly registered (yesterday!) "RonaldoBr" is EXTREMELY funny!! anybody see anything familiar in it? Vbs 08:45, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Caçarola and Relation to other languages
p04, in here, we name this as a "frigideira". (I dont know what Lisbonians name this - I think they give a different name). I'll ask. I think "Caçarola" is similar to the "frigideira", it just have a cap in it. The big one, to cook normal food, like rice or pasta, for that, in Portugal the used term is also panela. Dont you think the article over the related languages got too big? (btw the other section about the varieties is also too big). The observation you made in "Berma" is really a very good example of that. Thx -Pedro 12:21, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Galician
Wikipedia is becoming very tendencious in relation to the problem of Galician, see Galician language nether the Xunta de Galicia (Galician government - headed by a Spanish nationalist) would dare to say all of that. Someone eliminated info about Galician from the Portuguese language article. It is true that Galician is not Portuguese and Portuguese is not Galician due to lack of historical connection to the names, but most linguists (even important ones) agree that both are the same language. And this is not suprising to someone who can really understand and analyse the language. Todays situation is only due to political issues and not to linguistical ones. -Pedro 19:11, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Statements not based on any research
This section has serious problems: "Tourists in Portugal trying to communicate with the locals in Spanish are understood but may seem very offensive. French or English should be preferred in Portugal (because they are the two foreign languages taught in Portuguese schools &#8212; most people under 40 speak one of them well), if not speaking Portuguese. However, the same does not normally happen in Brazil, and many Brazilians feel extremely excited just for having the opportunity to communicate with people from different countries, something most Brazilians do not have a chance to do."

If you speak Spanish in Portugal anywhere near the border to a person who cannot speak either English or French, or German etc, you would be well received, much more than if you tried to speak in English or French, which few people would undestand. What is important is to communicate. I doubt if French or English are preferred. True they are taught, or at least English is taught to a certain extent, but students rarely reach the level of being able to understand a foreigner in one or the other language. Remember that less than 50 % of Portuguese students even reach the end of secondary school and fewer than that can speak a foreign language. Speaking a foreign language is very subjective and can only be measured by internationally recognized exams like the Cambridge First Certificate. Therefore statement "most people under 40 speak one of them well" is false.

I don't know if Brazilians get excited about having the opportunity of communicating with people from different countries, as such emotions would be hard to measure, but surely few Brazilians speak a foreign language (I was a teacher there for 20 years in Brasilia). The issue is so subjective that I would eliminate it from the article.
 * Agree! But It is true that most can be handy in French or English. French is known not because it is only taught, my father speaks it and he never learned it in School. French is (or was) a prestigious language. Remember, Portugal does not dub any language (subtitles is used, because most people want to hear the actors and the real sounds), except for Children (even in here, there are exceptions), Portuguese people are exposed to English in films. I think most Portuguese are not good in English, but an English person will have no difficulty in Portugal. Has for your doubt if English and French are preferred is very strange! Of course these languages are the preferred ones (undoubtly!), and the only ones, that people like and learn. Often parents want their children to learn French, while kids want to learn English. Some parents want them to know German (the 3rd learned language in Portugal), a very usefull language, but underestimated.-Pedro 01:47, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

We can agree that Portuguese are exposed to films and TV programs spoken in the original, but it is debatable whether more people speak English or French here than in other European countries. I have NO doubt that English and French are the preferred languages if someone does indeed speak a foreign language, since not many people in Portugal speak German, Dutch, Italian, Swedish, Danish, or Flemish. All I am saying is that if a Polish person visiting here manages to convey his message in Spanish I think that he would be welcome. Better Spanish than Polish I would think. But then maybe I am biased having done Spanish at university. That is why I could never understand the anti-Spanish sentiment on the agal forum because I loved the language and spoke it well until I moved to Brazil. RV


 * I just saw the UE website on languages, and it backs what was previously written in the article (in defense what people wrote, with me backing it. Portuguese people can handle languages pretty well. Just to state: In Portugal, if a tourist find someone, and if that someone doesnt speak English, he speaks French! And, using Spanish should really be avoided by non-Spanish speaking tourists! -Pedro 19:11, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * i was the one who added that "many Brazilians feel extremely excited...", before the article used to read "Tourists in Portugal and Brazil trying to communicate... offensive.", which certanly isn't true. i am quite confident about what i wrote. most brazilians do not have the opportunity ($$$) to ever leave the country in their whole lifes, and are kind of isolated. so when they meet a foreigner, many do feel really excited. that's probably why foreigners generally feel so welcome in brazil. some people will feel excited even just to talk to other brazilians who have travelled to other countries. as a brazilian myself, i would say that is the behaviour of a lot of brazilians. and spanish certainly isn't offensive for most people, and nowadays people are increasingly being taught spanish in schools, even in state schools, because of the mercosul, etc. Vbs 11:16, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Fortunnaly, you're not representative of the big majority of Brazilians, VBS -RonaldoBr 19:52, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm well aware of all the care we must take when adding this kind of info, and perhaps it was indeed a bad idea regardless of truth, but as a Brazilian, I do understand what Vbs says. It's not only him. Here, it's almost common sense that foreigners are very well treated, despite of where they come from. I'm not sure about Brazilians being "excited" to meet foreigners or not (I know I always am, though), but it's true this country is pretty much isolated from the rest of the world, in many aspects. It's true most people don't have means of travelling abroad and meeting new cultures, but just pay attention to geography. Brazil is close to dozens of other Latin countries, but it doesn't share its language with none of them. It's the only Portuguese speaking country in the whole America. I know both languages (Spanish and Portuguese) are very similar, but the barrier is still strong enough to prevent a lot of contact between people from said countries.


 * About other languages sounding "offensive", I don't know about Portugal (but if I had to take a guess, I'd say that's terribly wrong, and there's no offense), but I'm pretty sure nobody here would take foreign people talking to them as something "offensive". People here generally see that kind of thing as "someone trying to communicate with them" (which is exactly what it is), so they'll usually do their best to understand, to be understood, and to help. I know any attempt on this would be a big generalization, but this is what I feel from living here.


 * So yeah. My two cents. – Kaonashi 23:47, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Debatable statistics on Portuguese in Galicia
According to the article Portuguese is spoken in Spain (Galicia) by 2.9 million. That number should refer to the total population of the Autonomous Region and not the number of speakers. According to Instituto da Lingua Galega in 1991 88% spoke Galego. According to Galego.org 86.7 could speak. These numbers are based on what people answer when asked if they can speak, write, read, and understand. There are many galegos, especially in urban centers like Vigo, La Corunha, and El Ferrol that do not speak Galego.

There is also a lot of controversy about whether Galego is a variant of Portuguese--like Brazilian Portuguese--or is in fact a separate language. According to Galego.org, "Galician is "Galicia's own language" and "Nowadays Galician is spoken by more than 3 million people, both in Galicia and its borderings (occident of Asturias, León and Zamora) and in several countries where Galician people emigrated". If it is a separate language then the number of Portuguese speakers in Galicia is minimal.  The article should not state categorically that Galego is the same as Portuguese.  It is not.  In fact most Portuguese speakers, on hearing a galego speaking in his language, will think that he is listening to a Spanish speaker.

RV
 * I agree. The fact, is that was putted in the article, by a Galician. I think all info about Galician should be under the same area of the article. But some Galician dialects do not seem any closer to Spanish, nether to Portuguese hears (maybe to southern Portuguese) - many "good" linguists classify Galician has being a Portuguese dialect. But Historically it does not derive from it (so here is a point of great controversy), so it has a language/ dialect code and are officially undesrtood (by the government of Galicia) has very close languages. Plus, it has a big number of External (Spanish) influence. Read www.agal-gz.org they write in Galician Portuguese a "variant" of Portuguese used in some Galician Universities. But if you read Galician, you'll will see the structure of the Portuguese language in a different code, please read www.bng-gz.org (nationalist Galician party), that I believe supports Galician has a separate language. Cheers -Pedro 00:17, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I have looked at all the sites you mentioned. I personally see Galician as a separate language--at least the Galician as it is spoken and written today. The Reintegracionistas and the Lusistas who appear frequently on the www.agal-gz.org forum don't agree because many of them detest the Castillian speaking part of Spain, including the central government, and want an independent Galicia. Some want to unite with the north of Portugal. They think that by fighting for the inclusion of Galician in the Portuguese language family they will be able to save their language from disappearing and keep it from being considered a dialect of Castillian, a language which some of these more radical Galeguistas even detest. It is a very controversial issue and it is all connected to nationalism and anti-Spanish sentiments. Most Galicians go on speaking their heavily Castillian influenced "castrapo" and see themselves as Spanish from Galicia. I doubt if many of them would accept that they are speaking Portuguese. RV
 * As I said, Portugal did not take the languagee to Galicia, it "allways" existed there. So if that is Portuguese has the name "Portuguese" you can be correct, but the language structure is too close. There are Galicians speaking "Castrapo", there are some who dont, I knew one and he found really offensive if I call him "Spanish", but I know also, a Galician that prefers to be called "Spanish" rather than Galician. In the past, Northern Portugal and today's Galicia where the former Kingdom of Galicia. And Galician (galego) is still a symnoum of the Portuguese people. This is maybe the reason. I dont know if that "Galeguistas" are representative or not of the Galician society. -Pedro 10:45, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ella hecha siempre la ventana antes de yantar

 * Ella hecha siempre la ventana antes de yantar. (less common Spanish)

I can't connect to RAE now, but I doubt that hechar is a Spanish word. Echar el cierre means "to close" but Portuguese fechar and Spanish echar are not cognates. -- Error 01:50, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I removed the Spanish phrase. If somebody can come up with a substitute, add it. -- Error 00:54, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * That was someone that changed it. Please correct. -Pedro 13:02, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

__________________________________

I looked in two large Spanish dictionaries and I couldn't find "hechar". Echar, on the other hand, is common. I did find "yantar", although it is archaic. As for "vós" I talked to several Brazilians living here in Chaves and no one had ever heard that form in their lifetime. I am especially observant to how language is used, having done an M.A. in Linguistics, and I never heard the form in my twenty years of living in Brasilia, D.F. It might exist in some isolated quilombo somewhere where people have had little contact with the outside world. In the state of Goás, between Formosa and Barreras there are some isolated settlements inhabited by ex-slaves where the form might still be used. Notice that I said "might". Regarding "tu" many cariocas say "tu foi", "tu vai" etc. In set expressions "tu" appears as in "te amo" or "estou contigo". Rarely is the form used consistently and rarely is the correct second person singular verb form used. Do you agree Brazilians? I don't know all of the country of course and most of my contact was with Goianos, Mineiros, Cariocas, Paulistas, and Gauchos with less contact with Nordestinos. I am not saying the above as a fact but only as what I have heard or read.

RV


 * uhuh, "hechar" doesn't seem to exist. i looked it up in http://onelook.com/ (meta dictionary with over 900 various dictionaries indexed) and http://clave.librosvivos.net/ (the best online spanish dictionary i know about) and simply didn't get anything. "echar" did return results, and i do know it mainly being used to mean "to put", but i know there are other meanings as well. and yeah, i agree with ray, as far as i'm concerned, "vós" simply doesn't exist, but i DID say there are people who use "tú", even though not in the techically correct way. i have nothing against it and as Kaonashi/Mackeriv said, it doesn't really bother anyone, but it is far from standard. Vbs 08:46, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)