Talk:President of the Church

President of the Church (LDS Church)
I suggest that we split off the LDS Church section into a page titled President of the Church (LDS Church). This is more inline with MOS:LDS, (like First Presidency (LDS Church), since a large part of those sections don't apply to the General Latter Day Saint movement.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 14:57, 15 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Neutral. As long as all the other splinter groups get moved to that new article too (e.g. Community of Christ, etc.), I don't have a problem with it. But then it will have to be named something like President of the Church (Latter-Day Saint movement). &mdash; Fr&epsilon;ckl&epsilon;fσσt | Talk 15:19, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but I'm a bit confused. If your suggesting that splinter Groups should be moved to First Presidency (LDS Church), I didn't plan on it.  Since they are not part of the LDS Church, per MOS:LDS they shouldn't be part of a "(LDS Church)" page.


 * What I was proposing is that page would be the general "Latter-Day Saint movement" page, with only a single summery paragraph with a main tag directing the reader to First Presidency (LDS Church)


 * I think it is pretty clear that this setup is standard operating procedure per MOS:LDS.  Two good examples of this setup is First Presidency vs. First Presidency (LDS Church) and Quorum of the Twelve vs. Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (LDS Church).  The "(LDS Church)" pages covers only the LDS Church, while the other non-"(LDS Church)" pages cover all sects and the general topic.  The titles do not include "(Latter-Day Saint movement)".


 * As an example, I created the President of the Church (LDS Church) page as a draft. Worst case I can always Db-author it.  I will give it a few days before I move it from a draft to a live page and then reduce the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints section.  That way if there are any major objection, I can address them. However, again, pretty clear that this setup is standard operating procedure per MOS:LDS.


 * As for changing this pages title to "President of the Church (Latter-Day Saint movement)", I think that is a different issue and, to be honest, I'm not sure how I feel about it. I would be more than happy to disuses it, however I think it should be done by tagging this page with Requested move and discussing it under a different Talk page discussion, since it will effect a number of other pages, like First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 17:38, 15 April 2014 (UTC)


 * That does bring up the whole issue of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. "A topic is primary for a term, with respect to usage, if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term." Seeing as the LDS Church accounts for some 98% of the Latter Day Saint movement, it would seem that a lot of these articles should direct to the LDS versions with hatnotes to the broader "Latter Day Saint movement" version. Here, a second article should be created for "President of the Church (Latter Day Saint movement)" and this article should be for the LDS President. In this article, the section on the president of the LDS Church accounts for a significant portion of the article and there is a hatnote to the article on the LDS President, both indications that the LDS President of the Church is the primary topic. The same is true for "First Presidency" in that it should go to the LDS article and the current First Presidency article should be renamed "First Presidency (Latter Day Saint movement)". For terms that are unique to and shared among the various Latter Day Saint movement denominations, the LDS Church version is almost always the primary topic simply from its relative size to the rest of the movement. --JonRidinger (talk) 18:00, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * What I understand what you are saying, the relevant Manual of Style/Latter Day Saints and the relevant naming conventions examples of how Latter Day Saints pages doesn't support the "(Latter Day Saints)" inclusion with the LDS Church getting this page. Again, Two good examples of this setup is First Presidency vs. First Presidency (LDS Church) and Quorum of the Twelve vs. Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (LDS Church).  If the nameing convention should be changed per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is should be discussed on Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints), no here.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 12:15, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
 * What I would like to do is go by the Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints) and use President of the Church (LDS Church) for now. Then open a discussion on the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC at Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints) to discuess this isses and the same issue below.  If it is decided that WP:PRIMARYTOPIC applies this page can be moved to President of the Church (LDS Church) and the general non-LDS Church page moved to President of the Church (Latter Day Saints), just as a huge number of pages will have to be (such as the examples below).--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 13:06, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Page move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 17:42, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

President of the Church → President of the Church (Latter Day Saint) – The LDS President of the Church is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC based on secondary sources and the reality that the LDS Church accounts for over 98% of the Latter Day Saint movement. Related, the specific article on the LDS Church President should be moved here with a hatnote to the Latter Day Saint movement article. JonRidinger (talk) 18:19, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. &mdash; Fr&epsilon;ckl&epsilon;fσσt | Talk 19:54, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Wait, I lost track. What are we doing now? &mdash; Fr&epsilon;ckl&epsilon;fσσt | Talk 23:41, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
 * We are discussing the overall naming practices as related to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints) --JonRidinger (talk) 23:53, 16 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Support based on PRIMARYTOPIC. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 20:16, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Changing to Oppose per my comment at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints). -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 21:24, 16 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Support, but given the relevant naming conventions, the target should be President of the Church (Latter Day Saints). Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:43, 15 April 2014 (UTC) Changing to opposed based on ARTEST4ECHO's cogent explanation. I think he's correct in this regard. Like him, I would not necessarily be against changing the guidelines, but I think this does go against the standard practice right now. And in any case, NPOV trumps PRIMARY, and making the LDS Church version of this institution does raise some POV issues. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:53, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing that out. Works for me (in reference to "Latter Day Saint" vs. "Latter Day Saint movement") --JonRidinger (talk) 23:13, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that you should change the move request if you agree it should be (Latter Day Saint) instead.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 12:24, 16 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Support displacement of this page, but as many churches have presidents, I think a disambiguation page or set index page is best. -- 65.94.77.36 (talk) 04:55, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
 * What other non–Latter Day Saint churches have a "President of the Church"? Good Ol’factory (talk) 05:10, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Opposed but open to change - While I am not necessarily completely against it, I do have a concern keeping me from support it. Basically I think this change needs to be discussed at the relevant naming conventions and changed there first, if it is going to be changed here.


 * The relevant Manual of Style/Latter Day Saints and the relevant naming conventions examples of how Latter Day Saints pages doesn't support the "(Latter Day Saints)" inclusion with the LDS Church getting this page. Several examples
 * {| class="wikitable"

! General Topic (non-Latter-Day Saint)   !! General Latter-Day Saint Topic  !! LDS Church Specific !! Community of Christ Specific!! Bickertonite Specific
 * NONE || First Presidency || First Presidency (LDS Church) || First Presidency (Community of Christ) || NONE - Uses First Presidency
 * Twelve Apostles || Quorum of the Twelve || Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (LDS Church) || Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (Community of Christ) || Quorum of Twelve Apostles (Bickertonite)
 * Priesthood || Priesthood (Latter Day Saints) || Priesthood (LDS Church) || Priesthood (Community of Christ) || NONE - Uses Priesthood (Latter Day Saints)
 * Bishop || Presiding Bishop || Presiding Bishop (LDS Church) || NONE - Uses Presiding Bishop || NONE - Uses Presiding Bishop
 * colspan="5" | Patriarch or Evangelist (Same position with different titles in Latter Day Saints moment)
 * Patriarch or Evangelist || Patriarch (Latter Day Saints) or Evangelist (Latter Day Saints) || Patriarch (LDS Church) || Evangelist (Community of Christ) || NONE - Uses Evangelist (Latter Day Saints)
 * None (no equivalent position) || Presiding Patriarch || NONE - Uses Presiding Patriarch || Presiding Evangelist || NONE - Uses Presiding Patriarch
 * }
 * I can give you a 100 more examples. It seems that normally, general pages cover all sects and the general topic do not use include "(Latter-Day Saint)", unless there is a non-Latter-Day Saint specific topic named the same, such as the Patriarch example.  Then each sect gets a "(LDS Church)" or "(Community of Christ)" or "(Bickertonite)"
 * However, I'm not necessarily completely against it, but I just don't think it's the normal naming convention yet. If going to change the standard naming convention, because of PRIMARYTOPIC it should be discussed on the relevant naming conventions first, not here.  That way this single article isn't going against the normal Naming conventions.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 12:28, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Patriarch or Evangelist || Patriarch (Latter Day Saints) or Evangelist (Latter Day Saints) || Patriarch (LDS Church) || Evangelist (Community of Christ) || NONE - Uses Evangelist (Latter Day Saints)
 * None (no equivalent position) || Presiding Patriarch || NONE - Uses Presiding Patriarch || Presiding Evangelist || NONE - Uses Presiding Patriarch
 * }
 * I can give you a 100 more examples. It seems that normally, general pages cover all sects and the general topic do not use include "(Latter-Day Saint)", unless there is a non-Latter-Day Saint specific topic named the same, such as the Patriarch example.  Then each sect gets a "(LDS Church)" or "(Community of Christ)" or "(Bickertonite)"
 * However, I'm not necessarily completely against it, but I just don't think it's the normal naming convention yet. If going to change the standard naming convention, because of PRIMARYTOPIC it should be discussed on the relevant naming conventions first, not here.  That way this single article isn't going against the normal Naming conventions.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 12:28, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I can give you a 100 more examples. It seems that normally, general pages cover all sects and the general topic do not use include "(Latter-Day Saint)", unless there is a non-Latter-Day Saint specific topic named the same, such as the Patriarch example.  Then each sect gets a "(LDS Church)" or "(Community of Christ)" or "(Bickertonite)"
 * However, I'm not necessarily completely against it, but I just don't think it's the normal naming convention yet. If going to change the standard naming convention, because of PRIMARYTOPIC it should be discussed on the relevant naming conventions first, not here.  That way this single article isn't going against the normal Naming conventions.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 12:28, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Since this dission could effect the enitre naming convention, I suggest it be moved to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints)--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 17:13, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose - a sudden flip around is evidently a bad idea, but even without that readers can't be expected to know which church is bigger. Both articles require clear titles, which means not hiding or obscuring the name of WHICH church, clearly title both articles.In ictu oculi (talk) 03:10, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.