Talk:Puberty/Archive 2

A Question
Is it really possible for gonadarche/pubarche to occur in boys in ages about 10 and 11? Just a question. I'm only wondering because I have no idea who in the world would measure the size of a boy's testicles! I don't quite get what it would look like, either, but I don't want to see pictures! And if a boy has hairs slightly more prominent on the testes than other areas of skin, what does that mean? Thanks, Puggie4276 (talk) 02:51, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Compromise
You can suggest a compromis here. Pass a Method  talk  19:05, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I have no compromise to suggest. I am following WP:LEAD, just as I follow all Wikipedia rules and just about all of its WP:Manual of Style guidelines. Your version of the lead does not adequately summarize the article. The lead already needs more to do the article justice, and you are mainly subtracting instead of adding in your latest edits. If you want to add the line about ejaculation in boys and menstruation in girls being a major sign of puberty, fine. Flyer22 (talk) 19:13, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * In all your responses you have been extremely vague despite numerous requests for specificity and its slightly annoying. I have used your suggestion Pass a Method   talk  20:39, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't consider my responses vague. I just cannot elaborate on it any better than WP:LEAD. I also don't know what you mean about "numerous requests." You stated in your edit summary to specify, and that was one time, before you commented here. Anyway, good to see that we reached some sort of compromise. Flyer22 (talk) 21:16, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 10 January 2012
Please change the following urls because they're currently pointing to a 404 page on our website.

Posted URLS
 * Puberty in girls: interactive animation of Tanner stages
 * Puberty in boys: interactive animation of Tanner stages

Proper URLS
 * Puberty in girls: interactive animation of Tanner stages
 * Puberty in boys: interactive animation of Tanner stages

Chris renaud (talk) 19:34, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done — Bility (talk) 19:44, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Brain, behaviour and mind
I think this article should mention what effects puberty has here, any takers? I do vaguely remember the effects of steroids on various aspects of neurology but would need some time to become more familiar with it again. Richiez (talk) 13:12, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Beginning of puberty
I don't want to change this myself but somewhere in the article it says girls begin puberty at 10. But earlier on in this same article it says girls and boys don't begin until 13 or 14. But in the pedophilia article it says pedophilia is a sexual attraction by adults to minors under the age of puberty, and defines that as generally being those under the age of fourteen, although it says the age of puberty may vary. How are those three statements consistent?--RJR3333 (talk) 05:27, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * If you don't mind putting up with me, here's my answer: You say "earlier on in this same article it says girls and boys don't begin until 13 or 14." Well, since the information about girls generally starting puberty at age 10 is mentioned in the first section of the article, the only "earlier on" I see that you could be talking about is the lead. And in that case, you are confusing things. The lead says "The major landmark of puberty for males is the first ejaculation, which occurs on average at age 13. For females, it is menarche, the onset of menstruation, which occurs on average between ages 12 and 13." That is not talking about the beginning of puberty, as in the onset of puberty. First ejaculation and menarche are not the start of puberty. They are significant points of puberty, meaning that the boys are nearing reproduction capability and the girls may now have reproduction capability. But puberty starts before the ability to reproduce happens. A girl has started undergoing breast development before menarche happens, for example.


 * As for the Pedophilia article, as you know, it defines pedophilia as a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children. It says "generally age 13 years or younger, though onset of puberty may vary." Not 14 years or younger. "14 years or younger," as you also know, is the proposed criteria to combine hebephilia with pedophilia and retitle the disorder "Pedophilic Disorder" (previously proposed under the title "Pedohebephilic Disorder"), which means that early pubescents would be included. So that is not the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) saying that 14-year-olds are generally included under "prepubescent." That is the proposal showing that researchers know that 14-year-olds are not usually prepubescent...but can look it. Since it is no longer that common for a girl to hit puberty at age 13, it seems that the only reason that the DSM lets the age criteria extend to 13 is because of the fact that it is more common that a boy may hit puberty that late, and because 13-year-old pubescent boys still look prepubescent. Unlike girls, who can look clearly pubescent due to breast and hip development, there is little to no noticeable physical change in an early pubescent boy. Yes, people who are 10-14 (especially ages 11-14) can be pubescent, but that age range also falls into the prepubescent territory (hence the proposal to combine pedophilia and hebephilia). But it's very rare these days that a person is going to be just starting puberty at age 14 or 15, which is why the pedophilia age range stops at 13. It includes 13 just to be safe. Flyer22 (talk) 06:38, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Kallmann syndrome
Would it be possible to have a mention in the article, maybe even just in the "see also" section about Kallmann syndrome. It is a rare condition that is often overlooked when talking about delayed or absent puberty. It might be of interest to somebody reading this article who has not started puberty by the age of 15. Early diagnosis means so much to people like myself with this condition I think a mention of it in this article would be useful. Thank you. Neilsmith38 (talk) 12:28, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * If you can find a good way to insert it into the article, then I suggest you do it. See WP:BOLD. Make sure to use references when appropriate.  Lighthead  þ 18:42, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Does the lead section imply that libido is invariably absent in pre-pubescents?
Because that would be obviously incorrect. Everything Is Numbers (talk) 10:10, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you mean this sentence: "In response to the signals, the gonads produce hormones that stimulate libido and the growth, function, and transformation of the brain, bones, muscle, blood, skin, hair, breasts, and sexual organs". In that case, I don't think this section implies that libido is invariably absent in pre-pubescents. It only says it doesn't get stimulated in the same way in pre-pubescents as in pubescents.  Lova Falk     talk   17:01, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. When you say, “it doesn't get stimulated in the same way,” do you mean differences in the bodily/objective route by which it is generated or the differences in the mental/subjective way in which it's experienced? Just trying to clear this matter up. Everything Is Numbers (talk) 10:36, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know! I just read what the sentence says. As a comparison: "The government program produces grants that stimulate adolescents to attend school" - it doesn't mean that without the grant no adolescents would attend school. I hope that this makes matters more clear (but I am not sure of it)...  Lova Falk     talk   12:55, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Lede and puberty
User:ThinkSlam first added some content which I reverted since it was inappropriately sourced (to BabyCenter and Avert which are by no means reliable sources for articles about medical/biological issues - and what he added was also quite incorrect). He has now added to the lede the phrase The average age of puberty in girls is 10-and-a-half years old; the average age of puberty in boys is 11-and-a-half to 12 years old (the source is better but not ideal). What he meant to say, I believe, is The average age of the onsent/beginning of puberty in girls is 10-and-a-half years old... . Apart from being poorly written, I think it doesn't really belong in the lede. If the lede mentions the age of onsent of puberty, and then the age of the "landmark" (also note that the fact that menarche and the first ejaculation are the "landmark" of puberty is quite WP:OR, unsourced and subjective), then I think it should mention the age for the end of puberty too. But this would mean having part of the first section in the lede and I don't think it is necessary or desirable (not to mention that we should show restraint when we bias the lede towards the Western World/United States in regard to the age of puberty and especially menarche).Skydeepblue (talk) 23:14, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
 * As you likely know, I commented at ThinkSlam's talk page after you about some of the things you mentioned above. When I was tweaking his latest addition (though not a complete tweak, since there are still currently grammar issues, as you noted), I also considered that it's not lead material. But then I figured that, taking into account WP:LEAD, maybe it is since it is a very relevant aspect of puberty (of course...this material is mentioned lower in the article), and because the lead mentions the average ages for menarche and first ejaculation. I'm not hard-pressed on either decision regarding this. I feel that you should invite ThinkSlam to this section to discuss it. As for menarche and first ejaculation being considered the "landmark" of puberty, the Menarche article also currently states that menarche is the "central event of female puberty, as it signals the possibility of fertility." That is also unsourced, but there are reliable sources out there that state this (including the bit about first ejaculation). Flyer22 (talk) 03:41, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I tweaked the onset wording, and will refer ThinkSlam to this discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 03:53, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I made some changes; I added both the ages of the onsent and the ages of the end, using the sources from the first sections of the article; and I also kept the age of the "landmark". I think it's important to clarify these things, since many people do not have a proper understanding of what puberty is and that it is process of several years during which there are gradual changes. Some tend to think that puberty begins with menarche, others that it ends with menarche...Skydeepblue (talk) 18:46, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I made some tweaks to your changes, but, other than that, I'm of course fine with them. Flyer22 (talk) 20:00, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I take it that by the "Puberty is a process which involves several gradual physical changes." line, you wanted to get across that it lasts for several years. But that aspect is now clear in the lead from the completion of puberty age ranges that you added to it. And that puberty involves several gradual changes is clear from the initial paragraph. That's why I removed that line, as seen in the link above. Flyer22 (talk) 20:10, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I changed "On average, girls begin puberty at ages 10-11; boys at ages 11-13" to   "...boys at ages 11-12"; sources differ on the exact age - according to BBC it's "around 10 or 12" (BBC isn't a medical source, but still a very reliable news source). The reason I changed it was to provide consecutive numbers in the same way as for girls (for whom it's given as 10-11). If the average age is given 10-11 for girls and 11-13 for boys people will believe there's more variability in the age of onset for boys than for girls and I've found no evidence that this is the case.Skydeepblue (talk) 01:14, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, sources differ on the exact ages. Most sources, however, still cite "10 for girls, and 12 for boys." But that has been stated since the 1980s, and, as we know, puberty often happens earlier these days...especially among girls. It seems that stating that boys begin puberty at 11 or 12 is now more accurate than stating 12 or 13. This was discussed at the Hebephilia article in the Talk:Hebephilia discussion last year, with sexologist James Cantor weighing in. So because of that and because the url sources used in the article for the age ranges give 11-12 and 12 respectively for boys, I'm fine with your change, but we should alter other articles that relate to puberty, such as the Adolescence article (which a class is currently working on; see the talk page of that article), in the same way for consistency. Since you removed 13 from the lead, I removed 18 from the lead and altered the lower body of the article so that 13 and 18 are removed as well. I removed 18, because, as the Duke University Hospital source states, "The whole process of puberty should take three to four years." It doesn't exactly last several years (if you define "several" to mean "7 or more," or even as "at least 6 or more"), but rather a few years. This is also why sources, such as this MedlinePlus source, stating that puberty typically ends at 17 for girls are perplexing. Given that girls typically start puberty at ages 10 or 11, stating that they typically end puberty at 14 or 15 is accurate...while 17 for girls is too late to be typical.


 * I'll ask Nancydarling to weigh in on this. Flyer22 (talk) 15:55, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: I changed the heading of this section by adding "and puberty" to more accurately reflect the content of this discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 16:07, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * How are you defining the beginning of puberty? The changes in the brain that mark the beginning of observable pubertal changes start much earlier than that.  I don't have my books here with me, but the changes in the hippocampus that regulate hormone levels (Hippocampus-pituitary-Adrenal axis) change around 8 1/2 for girls and two years later for boys.  The hippocampus becomes decreasingly sensitive to gonadotropic hormones, resulting in more production of gonadatropic hormones which results in the physical changes you see.  These include changes in height, cardiovasculature and muscular systems, axial hair, genitals, change in voice, etc.  There is substantial individual and also ethnic variation in how fast you see physical signs after that.  I recall that the majority of African-American girls show signs of axial hair development before 10, but it is much later (or not at all) among Asian or Native American girls.  One of the problems with most work in this area is that it is based on old norms on European-American youth from the 1950's.  More recent work has shown that puberty is more variable than that.  I have several articles by Elizabeth Sussman, among others, that provide much better and more recent norms.  I'll see if I can find them tomorrow.


 * One of the reasons you're getting variability (besides sample issues) really is definition. Many youth don't reach full adult height until their late teens or early 20's.  So if you define puberty as starting with the rise in hormones (which I think is the best definition) and end it when you complete growth, you're definitely talking more than 10 years.  If you define puberty as ending with the capability of reproduction, most girls finish puberty 2 years after menses, so you're talking 4-6 years. Nancydarling (talk) 23:21, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for weighing in, Nancy. I'm not defining puberty in any particular way and I don't believe that Skydeepblue is either. We are only going by what WP:Reliable sources say, although the ones defining the onset and ending of puberty in the lead and in the Differences between male and female puberty section are not the most ideal sources for this topic. With the exception of Chumlea (1982) and Marshall (1986), if we consider those very old sources, I'm not sure that these sources are going by very old norms, however, considering that there has been a historical shift with regard to the onset of puberty, as the lead and lower body of the article note. Most modern reliable sources define puberty as beginning at 10 for girls and 11 or 12 for boys, so it is clear that they are not defining the onset of puberty by the brain changes you speak of; girls starting puberty at age 8 is still largely considered precocious puberty, not typical puberty. This was extensively discussed at the Hebephilia talk page. In that discussion, we also touched on what you speak of about the height aspect, although reaching adult height until the early 20s was not addressed. "Until early 20s" seems very unlikely, especially among women. But to note here a bit of what James Cantor stated about defining puberty, "Yes, again; boys typically do not achieve adult height until late teens. Remember, however, that puberty relates to the age at which the growth spurt starts, not the age at which the growth spurt ends (which happens closer to maturation/adulthood). If a given boy's growth spurt were the last of the maturational process to kick in, then the age of the spurt would mark the end of his puberty even though it would be the beginning of his growth in height." Cantor also stated that "14 is (more or less) when puberty ends," which didn't/still doesn't make sense to me with regard to boys...unless discounting the end of the growth spurt (considering that most 14-year-old boys still don't look anywhere close to adult). Cantor stated that puberty ending "more or less" at age 14 is why researchers set the hebephilia age range to stop at 14.


 * Going to what you speak of with regard to "the capability of reproduction"...that is perhaps what the Duke University Hospital source means when it states, "The whole process of puberty should take three to four years." However, the sources Cantor listed at the Hebephilia talk page also give a three-to-four or under-7-years answer and they don't seem to be based only on "the capability of reproduction." It definitely appears that the best way to go about all of this is to address the different ways that sources define the onset and ending of puberty, and what timing is considered more typical for whatever ethnicity. Note, however, that the Timing of the onset of puberty section is somewhat doing that; it just needs to be expanded. This article definitely notes that puberty varies, but, like most texts in this regard, it also gives the typical age ranges. Structure-wise, from what I see, the Variations section should be moved to the top, retitled "Variations of puberty" and the "Differences between male and female puberty" and Puberty onset sections should be made subsections of that (with the "Differences between male and female puberty" section shortened to "Differences between males and females"). It also seems that we need to get James Cantor in on this discussion to help us balance all this out. I'll contact him now via email, as well as WP:MED. Flyer22 (talk) 15:01, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Note that this topic is also being discussed at WP:MED. Flyer22 (talk) 19:40, 16 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, I'm just going back to sources defining puberty as 'The period during which an individual becomes capable of reproduction." (Steinberg, 2012).  Generally, this includes growth acceleration and the development of primary and sexual characteristics.  It's a fuzzy term in terms of definitions.  You can SEE pubertal changes around 10, but you can MEASURE changes in hormones much earlier.  Researchers like Elizabeth Sussman often mark the rise in hormones as the best and most accurate indicator of puberty starting (Sisk & Foster, 2004).  Most people become interested in sex around 10, and that's probably the result of adrenarche.  Nancydarling (talk) 20:48, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry for just getting back to you, Nancy. I was without Internet access for a few days. Thanks for the information. I'll add what you stated to the WP:MED discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 21:47, 19 October 2012 (UTC)


 * There is a new study out on boy's puberty from the American Association of Pedetrics. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/20/health/puberty-starting-earlier-in-boys-new-study-suggests.html?_r=1&hp  I am going to suggest that we use the two reports on girls' and boys' puberty from them as a basis of defining the beginning.  Nancydarling (talk) 13:29, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

What two reports, Nancy? And what wording are you suggesting? I'm cautious of basing a definition regarding typical pubertal onset on a new study. The New York Times source, after stating "six months to two years earlier than was reported in previous research, which historically taught that 11 ½ was the general age puberty began in boys," also states, "But experts cautioned that because previous studies were smaller or used different approaches, it is difficult to say how much earlier boys might be developing" and that "The new study also found that African-American boys began puberty earlier than whites and Hispanics, a result that other studies have shown also applies to African-American girls. Researchers said that difference is most likely driven by the role of genes in puberty. On average, black boys in the study showed signs of puberty, primarily identified as growth of the testicles, at a little older than 9, while white and Hispanic boys were a little older than 10." ... So they didn't give a typical age range, and the typical age given by most biomedical sources is still 11 ½ or 12 for boys. If you are also referring to the "large study on girls’ puberty in 1997" by Dr. Herman-Giddens, although it states that "experts generally agree that subsequent research has shown breast development as young as 7 or 8," that's not stating it as usual (as in average) development. Such development is still largely considered precocious puberty. In fact, onset of puberty before 8 years in girls or 9 years in boys is medically termed precocious puberty.

On a side note, if you haven't already seen it and are interested, here is what I recently stated in the WP:MED discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 11:25, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 21 October 2012
Marissahanley (talk) 19:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Empty request RudolfRed (talk) 19:37, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Age of first attraction
It was curious to me that there seems no mention in this article of the onset of sexual attraction and its relation to puberty. I am thinking of something like this. Would it be bad to mention it in the article? 213.98.196.190 (talk) 11:27, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't be bad to mention this at all in the article, using good or great sources over poor sources for it. I hadn't even considered such an addition; thank you for mentioning/suggesting it. At the moment, the source you have provided for this material is not loading for me. Flyer22 (talk) 18:34, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It seems this article excludes most mental/psychological issues, pointing readers to adolescence - and seeing that it seems there is a huge overlap between the articles. Perhaps the pointer to adolescence should be much more visible and the overlap reduced or merged.
 * As of attraction, it is quite hard to make a difference between sexual and other attraction. The attraction is the same, the manifestation is what changes. Perhaps much easier would be to answer the question of sexual phantasies. Richiez (talk) 23:29, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The IP's source is now working for me; not a bad source at all.


 * Richiez, what do you suggest to make the "pointer to adolescence" much more visible, and what overlap in this article are you referring to? Like you stated, most of the mental/psychological issues are covered in the Adolescence article. I wouldn't state that "it is quite hard to make a difference between sexual and other attraction," but I think that I get the gist of what you are stating on that. Flyer22 (talk) 06:10, 26 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The source is interesting but I would rather stick with the 100+ years of Freudian tradition according to which libidinal attraction is the driving force of the phallic stage. This could be interpreted as the first sexual attraction and luckily is quite well treated in psychosexual development and far out of the scope of this article. Unfortunately also out of scope of my expertise.


 * The other question - is it a good idea to have puberty handle almost exlucively the physiologic aspects of puberty and adolescence a mix of all - was there some discussion of it or did it just happen to be? Richiez (talk) 22:29, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Since Freud's psychosexual development/phallic stage is heavily disputed and controversial, I can't agree to follow that. But I also don't have a strong opinion on whether or not to include the IP's suggestion in this article.


 * As for what the Puberty and Adolescence articles cover, yes, I think that it happened that way naturally (will need to check what is currently the only Puberty talk page archive); although there appears to have been somewhat of a conscious effort to have this article mostly cover the biological changes and to keep it from duplicating much of what the Adolescence article states; I believe that it's a good thing that it does this...because puberty is more of a biological factor (most sources about puberty discuss the biological changes, and often how that plays into one's social life) and adolescence is more of a psychological matter (although most sources about adolescence discuss the biological, psychological and social changes). Puberty can be discussed adequately without going into any or much mention of psychological changes, although not as well without mentioning social changes. But adolescence cannot be discussed adequately without mention of biological changes in addition to the psychological and social changes. Flyer22 (talk) 00:20, 27 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, Freud's theory has always been somewhat debated but many things which were revolutionary in the 1910s have also correlation with phenomenons that are easily measurable and indisputable. For example it is well established that in the first years after birth toddlers have high level of hormones that act as sex hormones and the hormone levels are drastically lower during the time which pretty well corresponds to Freud's latence period. Masturbation is pretty common in toddlers and some level of "sexual attraction" would beanything but surprising.


 * As of the split, it seems like practicable and least work to keep it that. Just noticed.. the first sentence of adolescence says "occurring between puberty and adulthood" - rather misleading. Richiez (talk) 17:12, 27 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The first sentence of the Adolescence article would be misleading is if it simply stated "occurring between puberty and adulthood." But it actually states "generally occurring between puberty and legal adulthood (age of majority)." And that's because, as the hidden note I left about that currently states: THIS DEFINITION WAS THOROUGHLY DISCUSSED on the talk page, spanning two separate discussions. It is reliably sourced and is the consensus version. Most sources state that adolescence begins at puberty and terminates at (legal) adulthood; most cultures define the end of adolescence by the beginning of legal adulthood rather than by biological adulthood or full biological adulthood. Further, at age 18, which is the age of majority in most countries, most people are at full physical development."


 * Here are the two archived discussions about the first sentence that the hidden note is referring to: Talk:Adolescence/Archive 5 and Talk:Adolescence/Archive 5. From most sources I have seen in my studies of adolescence, and from what Nancydarling has seen, that is how adolescence is usually defined. It's almost always defined as beginning with puberty and as ending when society says it ends...which is by a "coming of age" ceremony or by legal adulthood...although there are researchers who suggest that adolescence can begin before puberty and/or extends a little past the teenage years (meaning, for example, that a person doesn't just stop being an adolescent at the legal adulthood age of 18). The lead of the Adolescence article makes very clear that "[t]he end of adolescence and the beginning of adulthood varies by country and by function," and this aspect is discussed lower in the article. Flyer22 (talk) 18:59, 27 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Well to me - "occurring between puberty and adulthood" means after puberty which is not what was intended looking at the archives. Seams to be simply a wording issue. Richiez (talk) 22:34, 27 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I forgot to mention that a person in preadolescence who has reached puberty may also still be considered preadolescent, which just makes the distinction between preadolescence and adolescence more complicated than it already somewhat is. But I noted that in both of the above archived discussions. So moving on...


 * The wording "between puberty and adulthood" is the wording that sources generally use, or something similar to that. For example, the second source for that line in the article states "the period of life from puberty to maturity terminating legally at the age of majority," while the third source for that line in the article states "the period between puberty and adulthood." I never thought about "between" being taken to mean "after puberty," but I now see how it could be seen that way since you see it that way. Although, as touched on above, it partly does take place after puberty; for example, most people have completed puberty before legal adulthood (which, again, is 18 in most countries). The wording obviously shouldn't be changed to use "during," as in "occurring during puberty and adulthood," so I'm not entirely sure what wording you'd be satisfied with. Maybe if we use "from," like the second source? We could use "from" in place of "between" so that the wording is "generally occurring from puberty to legal adulthood (age of majority)." I know that using the words "the period" before the word "between," like the third source, wouldn't help much...if at all. Flyer22 (talk) 01:59, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Update: I went ahead and changed it to my suggested rewording. Flyer22 (talk) 17:36, 28 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Much better now.. still not sure if everyone will understand it the way it was intended. How about "from the [early] onset of puberty until adulthood". Richiez (talk) 23:31, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sure that it'll read fine to anyone who comes across it, except for anyone wanting to change the definition to something about "full maturity" (which is something people often don't automatically know; because no one can automatically know when someone is at full maturity, unless the person is at an age that full maturity has no doubt been attained, this is the reason that adolescence is generally considered to end with a "coming of age" ceremony that declares adulthood, or, more commonly, with legal adulthood). For my suggested rewording, I considered putting "from the onset of puberty," but, given what I stated above about adolescence not always being considered to begin with puberty (meaning "with the start of puberty"), I'd rather not add "from the onset." Sure, we use the word "generally," but I'm still more comfortable with not using "the onset." And since the sources don't use "early," I feel that it's better not to add that either. However, I'm not horribly against adding "the onset"; so I wouldn't revert or heavily debate it, if it were added. One thing we should always make sure to include in the definition is "legal adulthood" and not just "adulthood," since people are biological adults when reaching puberty (unless you define "biological adulthood" as someone who has completed puberty)...and since adulthood is generally determined by law. Flyer22 (talk) 01:38, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't mind the legal adulthood but "from puberty" isn't quite ideal yet. If it is hard to say when exactly it starts we should probably say that. So another try - ".. vaguely defined to begin with the onset of puberty and last until..". Or mention both variants explicitly - as far as I can see that would be either onset of puberty or begin of the teen years? Richiez (talk) 23:19, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not yet understanding your objection to using "from" over using "from the onset." As for "vaguely defined to begin with," the pubertal aspect of defining adolescence isn't vague; as noted above, adolescence is usually considered to begin with puberty. And we already use "generally occurring." So "vaguely defined to begin with" isn't good wording in this case. Yes, it is a little tricky to say exactly when adolescence starts, but although that article's lead states "chronological age provides only a rough marker of adolescence, and scholars have found it difficult to agree upon a precise definition of adolescence," I wouldn't state that it's hard to say exactly when it starts...since there is a general definition that is explicitly gone over above. As for the teenage years aspect, that article's lead goes right into that after the first line. I changed the first line again, this time adding "during the period" so that the wording is "generally occurring during the period from puberty to legal adulthood (age of majority)." The second and third sources both use "the period" and I believe that using this takes care of the most recent wording issue you expressed about the line, though I'm obviously still not sure why you object to the most recent previous rewording. And, even though I feel that adding "of life" is unnecessary wording, if you'd rather we use "the period of life" over simply "the period," I'm okay with that. Flyer22 (talk) 01:55, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Note 2 Is Incomplete
Note 2 leads to nothing but the author's surname and year. That needs to either be improved, or removed. --Gunnora (talk) 21:10, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

When does puberty end?
The article currently states in the lead that "Girls usually complete puberty by ages 15–17, while boys usually complete puberty by ages 16–17". I don't agree with this. Although most of the changes during puberty occurs between age 10–17, things like the voice and the sexual organ continue developing and growing until age 18–21. You can also tell by the look of the person whether he/she is 19 or 17 years old. Personally I believe that boys finish puberty at an average age of 18 years. But it may depend on if puberty only covers the sexual maturation allowing sexual reproduction? Hey mid  (contribs) 05:58, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Hello, Heymid. See the sections above that discuss aspects of this, especially the section. As for puberty lasting until ages 18–21, you will hardly find any WP:Reliable sources, especially not ones that are WP:MEDRS-compliant (our standard for sourcing health information), stating that puberty lasts (note my use of "lasts" instead of "until") past age 18 (particularly in the case of females) and certainly not ones stating that puberty lasts until age 21. Continuing to physically mature does not equate to continuing to go through puberty. For example, many men don't start to grow facial hair until their early 20s; starting to grow facial hair at age 22 does not mean that the 22-year-old man is still going through puberty. As for the statement "You can also tell by the look of the person whether he/she is 19 or 17 years old.", I completely disagree with that. There is usually no noticeable physical age difference between those two ages. It is not easy to put a 17-year-old beside a 19-year-old (and often not even a 16-year-old), with no idea of their ages, and correctly determine which is older, especially in the case of females. There is also often no noticeable physical age difference between late teenagers and early 20-somethings, which is why late teenagers can often easily pass as early 20-somethings using fake IDs or with no deception at all...and early 20-somethings are often mistaken for late teenagers or easily portray teenagers (are easily believable as those ages) in plays, television or film. Flyer22 (talk) 06:33, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I suppose that's what I was trying to say, then – although you are sexually mature (i.e. finished puberty) as a male by the age of 17, you haven't completely matured physically until age 18–22. I may be overestimating the visual changes between age 16–19. However, I do believe that the voice timbre of a 19-year-old talking is distinguishable from that of a 16-year-old talking. Hey  mid  (contribs) 10:29, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

The beginning of puberty, ejaculation, and collapses the foreskin.
Why is not affiliated possibility pull the foreskin with the possibility of masturbation? Oster noted that according to his studies at the age of 12-13 years, 60% of boys can pull foreskins. After a to equivalent to the fact that the 60% had already started to puberty, because at this age the main cause of play with a penis masturbation. Why study this demand does not take into account?

It should also be noted that in cases where puberty is faster than 13 years, and usually it is, then you can not say that the first ejaculation is only thirteenth years of age. I don't believe that the boy begins to puberty, example at age 11, for 2 years not to masturbate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.8.67.77 (talk • contribs)

Inaccuracies in the section 'Historical shift'
The average age of puberty has been 11-13 for over 200,000 years and one of the sources cited mentions that the studies done in the 1800s were faulty. They were based on small sample sizes of malnourished children in a few European countries and do not represent children in the US or elsewhere. Birth records show that the average age of puberty has been between 11-13 all across the world for as long as the records have been kept. If there was a fall in the age of puberty since the 1800s (and there's very little evidence to support that) it's only because a rise in the age took place.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/12/051201022811.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.7.228.5 (talk) 21:32, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

GnRH production
I thought Gonadotropic releasing hormone was produced in the medial pre oricular nucleus of the hypothalamus rather than the arcuate nucleus as stated in the article. Can anyone confirm this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.43.180.15 (talk • contribs)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 February 2015
Section 2.1: "Boys who have earlier pubertal timing generally have more positive outcomes in adulthood but more negative outcomes in adolescence while boys who have later pubertal timing have more negative outcomes in adolescence but more positive outcomes in adulthood."

This sentence makes no sense/is redundant.

74.79.76.48 (talk) 21:19, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done I've cut down on some on the redundancy. Stickee (talk) 00:58, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Acne causes scarring.
Since the article is completely protected, I'm unable to add a source link to the statement that acne can cause scarring. Could somebody please put http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Acne/Pages/Complications.aspx between ref tags for me? TY. Sheogorath 149.254.182.117 (talk) 09:14, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Puberty ages
I am a bit unsure about the provided ages of the start and end of puberty as they tend to vary depending on the source. For example, regarding the age of completion of puberty, the Palo Alto Medical Foundation (the source cited in this article) giving 16 for females and 16-17 for males, Farlex giving 16 for females and 18 for males and the United States government giving 14 for females and 15-16 for males in one source and 15 for females and 16 for males in another. Furthermore, there is also the issue of the age of puberty varying with country and - as specified by the source in the article - generation. I think there should be a bit more discussion regarding the variation. Sega31098 (talk) 10:06, 23 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Sega31098, I reverted you, stating, "We don't need a bunch of ages in the lead, and should go by the most commonly cited ones." Stating or implying that age 8 is the standard age for when girls start puberty is at odds with the general literature on puberty (a girl starting puberty at age eight is still seen as early puberty in enough sources); furthermore, that source you cited is U.S.-centric. The lead is meant for summarizing, and we should summarize this puberty matter in the lead as best we can (whether that means stating some like, "In western countries, girls typically begin and finish puberty at [so and so age]; in other countries, [so and so]."), and use the lower body of the article for elaboration on it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:37, 23 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Looking at what you added again, I see that your "with the normal range being from 8-13 in girls" wording was simply noting that a girl may start puberty as young as 8 and this is still normal; that age 8 can be normal for girls is usually true these days. But, again, the source is U.S.-centric. The pubertal ages in the lead has been an issue for sometime because of the different reports in sources and the fact that the standard ages may deviate in certain countries. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:45, 23 February 2016 (UTC)


 * See the discussion, if you haven't already, for previous thoughts on this issue; ethnicity/race is also noted there. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:01, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your clarification.Sega31098 (talk) 19:25, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Diagram of body
Why would you and me be offended?Well try me a 10 year old seeing a diagram of the opposite sex.! Isabella vampire slayer (talk) 20:55, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Ethnicity study
Aréat, regarding this, ethnicity material regarding timing is already in this section; so that is where any new ethnicity material regarding timing should go. Basing a section on one study the way you did is WP:Undue. Also, you didn't add a full citation. I'll ask WP:Med if they have any opinions on this. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 10:47, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Should occur under "variations" Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 20:10, 24 July 2017 (UTC)